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Okay, funny story, then a question for you all: My cleric has been… 
11th-Jan-2004 09:51 pm
Pride & Prejudice // Darcy is Happy!
Okay, funny story, then a question for you all:

My cleric has been known to do some pretty ding-batted things. She's a cleric of Sune... of course she's going to be excentric! And ontop of that, she's an Aasimar with a strong lineage of Sunite followers, going all the way back to her celestrial ancestors... so strong of a lineage, that she was born with the blessing of metalic red hair. This, of course, has given her quite the ego...

Anyway. She's been known to do some pretty stupid things. In fact, her opinion is normally looked over and/or ignored, but then found to be correct. Last game was no exception.. when they were trying to figure out where to go next, Summer Roe stood up and declared loudly "The place we belong is the place we do not wish to attend!". The other Harpers shrugged her off, but then found out that they were to go to Mulhorandi, then through the desert to the land of the halflings.. the exact place everyone (aside from Summer wanting to visit her homeland [Mulhorandi]) said that they wouldn't go to. When she hits a nail on the head like that, most people shrug it off as an odd coincidence. Why? Because then she goes and does something absolutely stupid, like yelping and hugging The Soul after he promised to free the Mulhorandi slaves upon their return. Yeah, stupid thing to do, especially since they were standing in the middle of Hoard members out at the market.

Well, not too long after that, we were doing something and our GM happened to ask me what Summer's Wisdom was. I answered him- "Oh, its a 34!" Yes, thats right.. an Aasimar Cleric of Sune with a wisdom of 34. After that, a fellow player that also GMs one of our games practically threw his dice in the air and said "I will never, never, NEVER allow anything that worships Sune to have a wisdom that damn high! Its like.. like an oxymoron!!!"

Anyway, on with the question:

All of the Sunites that we have in any of our games always end up being very dim-ish and airheaded. We've always got the type that spend way too much time in the temple "worshipping Sune" through wild orgies and such. Is that just some weird thing that we do, or is it common knowledge that a Sunite is a little off?
11th-Jan-2004 09:43 pm (UTC)
From the GM perspective, and from a mechanical (pertaining to the rulebooks) perspective, a wisdom of 34 is higher than Great Gold Wyrm, which means that it's falling into Deity range. Straight out of the PHB: "Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense,
perception, and intuition. While Intelligence represents one’s
ability to analyze information, Wisdom is more related to being in
tune with and aware of one’s surroundings. An “absentminded
professor” has low Wisdom and high Intelligence. A simpleton (low
Intelligence) might still have great insight (high Wisdom). Wisdom
is the most important ability for clerics and druids, and is also
important for paladins and rangers. If you want your character to
have keen senses, put a high score in Wisdom." (Emphasis mine.)

From the way you're describing your character, you are not playing by your attributes. This, so far as not technically illegal, is simply unfair. There may be another person who would love to have a bright, insightful character but can't pull it off by the dice for a low Wis score. Or a player who wants a charming, Charismatic person but can't for a low Cha score.

Understand, the attributes of a character to not necessarily delegate that character's personality. However, a character with a 6 in strength just shouldn't try to be intimidative.

Also, understand that an attribute over 25 is next to impossible to be obtained through standard character creation and leveling up. To have an attribute at nine points higher designates that your character should be at least twentieth character level and would have to have received extra bonuses (through race, magic items, etc.).

You may want to reevaluate this character and her attributes. Of course, I don't know your character's level, game history, or character history. However, as a DM, I wouldn't allow you to roleplay your character as a "ditz" or as having less than common sense. "Common sense" is Wis 10. The gap between your numbers is just not right.

Avery W. Krouse
11th-Jan-2004 09:58 pm (UTC) - all rules bend
yes but on the other hand the charictor could be playing as the insight is from the god there for she is a ditz but she hits things on the head cause the god tells her wut to say.

the person didnt ask to be berated if her dm c it fit to let alone so should u

Death's Hand
Dark Seraphy
11th-Jan-2004 10:03 pm (UTC) - Re: all rules bend
Excuse me, but a statement and analysis from the Core Rulebooks is what a DM does. I stated plainly that I didn't know her characters history or game history but that, from a purely mechanical standpoint, it's incorrect.

Now, once you gain control of grammar, spelling, and syntax concepts, feel free to reevaluate your opinion and restate it.
11th-Jan-2004 10:15 pm (UTC) - Re: all rules bend
Well, in our game, the dieties have all vanished.. but somehow, wizards and clerics still have their powers. Technically, the magic should have left with the dieties. Summer Roe doesn't have any neat blessings from Sune that made her wisdom so high.. but a slew of tomes, magical items, and the fact that every attribute modifer she's gotten since her creation has gone towards Wisdom definately helps. Our GM gave me permission to do that, and said, and I quote: It's a fantasy game. Do whatever you want. You just have to have an excuse for how you got that.
11th-Jan-2004 10:38 pm (UTC)
Okay! Thanks for making a super long comment that in no way answered my question.

Anyway.. hey, guess what! I've read my Player's Handbook. And I knew that before the first time I made that Wisdom get higher. My character is extremely wise.. like I said, anytime that she hands out her insight (like predicting that they had to go to Mulhorandi to travel to the safe spots), she is absolutely correct. She's also got this nack for figuring out riddles and rhymes, then putting them to good use. Many citizens see her as a guru, and will come up to her for advice.. but completely expect to see her silly side when she's not in her helper mode. She is also extremely passionate, and thats where the trouble starts. When something happens that is terrifically good, 7 times out of 10, she'll react before thinking. No where in the description about Wisdom does it say "Always thinks before he/she speaks/does". Also, in the case of the Hoard incident, considering that she had never been around the Hoard, she had no way of knowing that hugging a person would nearly cause a riot. That has nothing to do with common sense or anything like that. She's a cleric, not a scry.

Also, you saying that she has to act wise at all times for to be fair in the game is very, very.. well.. dumb. That would be like saying that Nickolas, a Sunite bard that was recently turned into the king of our country, has to dance around and sing all day long, because hey.. he's a bard, and for him to not be barding around all day would be "unfair". Theres a time for every emotion a character has, and a time for them to be serious, and such. No where in the PHB does it say that every character has to be stereotypical and exactly how the book says they should be, because hey... they are our characters, and our creations. Just like you can have a kinder that doesn't steal, you can have a cleric that has a silly side. If it was the biggest sin in the world to make a character the way you want it, we would be assigned pre-written characters to play instead of making our own. And hey, if my GM (who has been a gamer quite possibly longer than you or I have been alive) doesn't see a problem in it, then I guess its really none of your business anyway... is it?

Please, please do not even start insulting how I run my character. You're right, though... you don't know game history or character history, you don't know her level, and you don't know half of what you're talking about right now.

But hey, thanks for trying anyway!


PS: Oh, and do some simple math for a moment, would you? When I first created Summer Roe, I handed her the highest number I rolled for her wisdom... that, thank goodness, was an 18. She is now 19th level, and has read many a tome, took the feat Education, and has devoted just about every single modifier she's gotten to her wisdom. I don't have my char sheet here, so I can't check for sure, but I think she's even wearing a magical item that boosts her wisdom as well. Darling, please don't try to make it look like I made up some number to put on my character sheet.
11th-Jan-2004 10:45 pm (UTC)
Okay look, I meant no ill-will by my post. The internet is not a good conveyer of tone and inflection. If I came off as rude or "know-it-all" it was totally unintentional. Re-reading my post, I can see where it could be read that way. And taking a closer look at yours, I did comment on a side matter, not what you asked for. For that, I apologize.

The reason I smarted off to the other person who commented was that they decided to rudely disrespect what I had written and did so with extremely poor type (a very big pet-peeve of mine). But I did not mean anything against you or your character who, by the way, seems like a quite interesting PC. I have had a few oddball characters myself.

However, I simply stated my opinion and did so in a pojnt-blank manner. If this offends you, I'm sorry, but you posted that in a public community. Whatever someone decides to respond with is their business. If you don't like it, delete the comment. But this little crusade of "I'm right, you're wrong, eat me" is just flat out uncalled for. Especially when I meant nothing rude by what I said to begin with.

You're free to read into my original post all you want. If you want to turn this into me bashing your character or me bashing your playing skills or whatever else, that's fine. Not what I intended, but what you obviously pervceived. So A to B, get over it. Move along. Delete my comments, I don't really care. But take a moment to step back before you start hacking away at people. You never know, you may have misunderstood. It happens.
11th-Jan-2004 10:46 pm (UTC)
And PS, your Bard analogy is based on class. Mine are based on attribute. Totally different subject material.

A rogue doesn't have to steal, but a rogue with a 1 in dexterity certainly isn't going to be able to walk without serious help.
11th-Jan-2004 11:24 pm (UTC)
Unfortuatly that is a flaw in the d20 system. Can you picture a wise & insightful person who is completely oblivious to his immeidate surroundings? Thus the real flaw of d20.

Skills and powers broke up eaqch score yet again and I thought it brilliant, except for the rest of the bullshit that followed with that system.

And a person with a 6 str can easily be intimidative. Ever picture Rastilin Majere? He's a scary fucker, but not strong at all. Hence is why intimidation is charism based with the option to make it strength. Its much more attitude and presence then it is physical aptitude.

At any rate I know little about Fearuin so my apologies if this deveiates from the original topic at hand.
12th-Jan-2004 05:32 am (UTC)
Wow, lot of flaming and rudeness from lot of parties here. Ive been a GM for near 20 years now, starting with 1st ed and now up to 3rd (with WW, Shadowrun, Gurps in to spice thigns up as well). In my humble opinion (and no I am not telling you how to run your char by any means) to have that high of a wisdom SHOULD be unplayable. We as humans can not fathom that amount of wisdom (going on the pure mechanics) as that is far above our normal range of mental prowess. A low 20's I could understand. No, I am not saying anything negative about you or your char, just my opinion.

I have had several people in my games play people devoted to Sune. After the first two, I told anybody else that if all they wanted was to screw in game and try to have orgies, then they are not going to be able to play that char. While that does happen in the Sune temples, it is a small part of what that worshipping involves. The only way for gods to survive and last is to attract followers. While undoubtedly this act would attract some, the majority of the populace would not go for it. (think working class people as majority of Faerun) I will allow them some daftness and moments of pure chaotic thought, but I by no way shape or means allow the clerics of Sune to spend time in debauchery 24/7. Sounds to me that your DM is focusing on only one aspect of that goddess (or allowing the players to walk over him/her in that issue) and not focusing on the more important issues at hand such as healing, spreading beauty yada yada yada...

just my two pence.
12th-Jan-2004 06:05 am (UTC)
Yeah, I spend a lot of time in our games trying to convince everyone that the world doesn't work like that. A lot of different things in our game get tossed aside as "This is how this works, and this is the only way it works, the end"... like our kinder in Dragonlance have to steal, and our elves haaaave to be arrogant, etc. My Sunite is actually played to be a virgin (though I know I'll probably get flamed for that statement as well), because she is saving herself for Sune. (No, she's not a lesbian.. but hell, if Sune wanted to have sex with Summer Roe, she'd want to be good and pure for it) She also only visits the Sunite Temple to check on how its running (She's the High Priest) since she spends so much time checking on every other temple. Like I said in a comment somewhere in here, she's rebuilt about 100 temples in war-torn cities, and likes to make sure that they are all running according to how the dieties would prefer.

Sorry to have such a long comment, but I thought I'd go ahead and clerify how *my* Sunite works before someone flames me for that, too!

About the wisdom thing... she is only about 200 experience points away from 20th level. And since I can justify every point of that 34 with magical items (she's got a Harpers Pin that enhances her wisdom as well.. should she take it off, she goes down to 30), my GM doesn't seem to have a problem.
12th-Jan-2004 09:58 am (UTC)
Ok, I'm not even going to touch the whole 34 Wisdom issue, because I think others here have adequately expressed my opinion on that. To address your original question, at least in the three campaigns with which I'm currently involved, not all Sunites are "ditzy." They're individuals who just happen to follow the same deity. For example, in one campaign I play a Ranger/Druid who follows Mielikki, my husband plays a Bard who follows Sune. The two characters are involved, but the R/D understands what worship of Sune involves...she only asks that he not flaunt other partners in front of her (and that he not ask too many questions about what she's doing in the meantime...heh). Anyway, his character actually has a fairly low (10) Wisdom... but he's not ditzy. It's more that he tends to rush into things or maybe miss things that characters with more Wisdom wouldn't. I guess I would say that I don't think it's particularly good roleplaying to assume that just because someone worships a deity who values beauty and pleasure, that person must then be frivolous... which is the implication I get from your original post, although I may easily be wrong.
12th-Jan-2004 11:24 am (UTC)
Frankly, it appears as though a lot of people, potentially including yourselfs, have a lot of notions about Sune that do not match up to her description in F&P.

Therefore, to answer your very first original question, here's what Faiths and Pantheons has to say:

"However, as most Sunites are seen as flighty, vain, and superficial but basically harmless, the church of Sune has less influence than its prominence might otherwise suggest" indicates that your average Sunite would be "flighty, vain, and superficial but basically harmless". In this, your description is accurate.

"Sunite temples are [...] constructed with numerous picturesque paths and promenades and suprising and enchanting nooks in which to share moments of love, beauty, and passion" The Clergy and Temples description seems to depict beautiful, passionate love, not "wild orgies" or the like. There is nothing in the Temple description that even comes close. It also does not explicitly state that sex is even involved. Some of the most passionate moments you can have don't involve sex. The beginning of the section, "Sunites are asthetes and hedonists, who actively seek out pleasure and beauty in all things" does not immediately connotate sex as pleasure can be derived in almost infinite ways.

"All clergy of Sune also strive to create beauty in a personal way, preferable as a creator of static fine art (blown-glass, ornaments, paintings, or tapestries are all fashionable)". The majority of the Sune description involves this. Creating or seeking art.

So, in a nutshell, the way that the Sunite is stereotyped is very, very wrong, directly according to Faiths and Pantheons. That said, any DM or PC is more than allowed to rewrite, redesign, and re-envision anything within any part of the multiverse as they see fit.

To play a Sunite as "whimsical" or "flighty" is fine. That's how Faerun sees them. To play a Sunite as a nymphomaniac takes a bit of bending, but is not improbable. To construct a Sunite temple as a place to "worship Sune through wild orgies" (tense updated) is not necessarily accurate.

And the final question is, you didn't seem to describe your character as one who seeks after works of art and beauty. If you just failed to mention it, that's perfectly fine. If your character doesn't do it, you're leaving out more than half of what Sune is all about.
31st-Jan-2004 12:49 pm (UTC) - Just so you know
You're roleplaying the time of troubles, where the gods were forced to walk the earth. They didn't disappear, you're right. However, wizards and Clerics DID have their powers go awry. Clerics could barely do anything without disaster, and wizards were only a little better off. For example, read the Drizzt books. Harpell Malchor teleports only his eyes into the Mithril Hall, the gnomes in the Underdark continually get slaughtered by their own elementals, etc. I have no problem with DMs taking their own twist on things, play it how you like. Could make for some interesting character interactions to play it that way. I'm just saying that by the book, your campaign is very wrong.

That said, I might like to play a character in that setting. Cleric atheists might be fun.
31st-Jan-2004 06:04 pm (UTC) - Re: Just so you know
And you had to post this anonymous why? Right.
8th-Feb-2004 05:31 pm (UTC) - Re: Just so you know
Don't have a LJ. Didn't know if I needed to register to use a name (Am assuming I would) and just didn't feel like taking the time. It's not that big a deal... the information is correct, regardless.

As I said, it might be fun, but by the books it's not accurate. I've been known to repeatedly bastardize roleplaying systems and timelines for my own purposes, it's all good to me. Just make sure you know the real story if you're going to get into arguments about it online.

Oh we geeks, how fun we are.
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