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D&D 3E
Quick question 
27th-Feb-2006 11:32 am
Can someone tell me what the differences between the "Lich" and "Lich, Good" templates are? Also, is the Lich, Good essentially the same as the Baelnorn in concept?

I think Lich, Good is in Monsters of Faerûn (3.0, so compare it to 3.0 Lich if they're similar), but my Faerûnian Sourcebook Guy is out of town for a couple of weeks.

Thanks :p
27th-Feb-2006 03:50 pm (UTC)
lol, I shall now forever refer to them as Lich, Good. heheh. not good lich, oh no. Lich, good. ;)

sorry this was an entirely unhelpful reply.
27th-Feb-2006 04:00 pm (UTC)
Hey, if you want a "Good Lich" I recommend trying the Undying from the Eberron Campaign Setting.

Basically they are the exact reverse of Undead. They arent alive, but their spirits have remained with their bodies for some higher purpose, and are powered by Postive Energy (not Negative Energy like undead). They are holy creatures. In Eberron the Elvish religion is based around em.

This is a much better "Good Lich" then the Lich, Good template in Monsters of Faerun.
27th-Feb-2006 04:02 pm (UTC) - The Deathless.
Are also found in the Book of Exalted Deeds. You might be able to use them.
27th-Feb-2006 05:11 pm (UTC) - Re: The Deathless.
Yeah, I've looked them over. They don't really fit the archetype of a lich (powerful undead spellcaster), and I was more interested in the stats/background of the "Good Lich" versus alternatives.

Also, there are only a few (published) ways to have a Deathless, and I'm investing the possibility of an undead-ish caster PC or NPC in a good-centric game.

I will keep them in mind as an option :0
27th-Feb-2006 06:32 pm (UTC) - Re: The Deathless.
The background was the desire in Forgotten Realms authors and campaign designers to have everything and a kitchen sink in the Realms.

The "Lich, Good" template was designed long before the Deathless had been designed, and was just an attempt to justify good-aligned characters who are powered by negative energy. It's still pretty silly.

The Deathless are what the FR Good Liches should have been, and the Deathless should be used in their place. Baelnorns, for instance, just about exactly fit the definition and concept of Deathless.
27th-Feb-2006 06:51 pm (UTC) - Re: The Deathless.
Alright, now I need some suggestions of ways (other than dying and becoming a Risen Martyr) for a PC/NPC to become a deathless creature.

Got any? :p
27th-Feb-2006 07:08 pm (UTC) - Re: The Deathless.
I haven't looked at it too closely, but Magic of Eberron might contain some of that. If not, the Book of Exalted Deeds might, or the Monster Manual 3 (which has some deathless stuff in it, IIRC). I don't have either of the latter two sources, but if no one else does, I'll check my Magic of Eberron and Explorer's Guide books tonight, to see if there are any options there.

At one point, I examined the generic Deathless warrior from the Eberron campaign setting book, and determined it to have a Level Adjustment of about +3. Never really looked at the casters, since they have much higher CR/HD to begin with.

Failing any of the above, I'd just require the same kinds of things as the Lich, but with the Good-aligned flavor and purpose.
27th-Feb-2006 07:17 pm (UTC) - Re: The Deathless.
I have the latter two sources in my backpack. Couldn't see anything in the BoED, so I'll skim through the MM3 later just in case.

I was glancing at the lich and thinking of rewriting something similar with good abilities substituted for evil abilities and so forth.

For instance, trade the paralyzing touch for say a ravage, so that it only affects evil creatures.

I'll have to check the Eberron books later on.
1st-Mar-2006 01:43 am (UTC) - Re: The Deathless.
Explorer's Handbook and Magic of Eberron contain nothing of import for the Good Lich or anything equivalent. There is an Undying Wizard in the Explorer's Handbook, which is just a 3 HD wizard with basic undying traits.
27th-Feb-2006 07:13 pm (UTC) - Re: The Deathless.
Create Deathless is a spell in the Eberron Campaign Setting book. It's alot like Create Undead, but uses positive energy.
27th-Feb-2006 07:18 pm (UTC) - Re: The Deathless.
Fancy that. Shows what I get for submitting the above reply without checking the page again ;)

I'll have to take a peek.
27th-Feb-2006 06:54 pm (UTC) - Re: The Deathless.
And, your person opinion aside, do you have the information on the "Lich, Good" template? ;)

It may not be my decision to substitute something else, so I'd like to at least have that template (or, again, the differences between it and the regular Lich template) handy if necessary.
27th-Feb-2006 07:14 pm (UTC) - Re: The Deathless.
I don't have any information on the "Lich, Good" template at the moment, as it's in the Monsters of Faerun book, which I have at home. If no one else helps you, I'll get that information tonight.
27th-Feb-2006 07:15 pm (UTC) - Re: The Deathless.
Excellent, thanks.
1st-Mar-2006 01:46 am (UTC) - Re: The Deathless.
All Monsters of Faerun has is a few additional abilities available to good-aligned liches (who would otherwise use all the standard rules of liches), and two examples of good liches (the archlich and the baelnorn).

I highly recommend going for Create Deathless instead, or modify the process and available abilities to reflect positive energy rather than negative energy.
1st-Mar-2006 01:54 am (UTC) - Re: The Deathless.
Sounds good.
27th-Feb-2006 08:40 pm (UTC) - Re: The Deathless.
Except that book sucks, and The Eberron Campaign Setting does not. :-p Eberron has more stuff you can use for your campaign thats fun to play and overall balanced.
27th-Feb-2006 05:08 pm (UTC)
I'll keep it in mind. I think my DM has the Eberron Campaign Setting (or at least someone in our group does -- I've seen it at the table every now and then).

I just wanted to take a gander at the template to see if there actually were some differences other than the name. :p
28th-Feb-2006 01:17 am (UTC)
The Libris Mortis has a small section on good liches. I believe the LA is +0, but I'm not positive on that, and the book is packed away, so...yeah.
28th-Feb-2006 02:49 am (UTC)
One CR higher than a normal lich it looks like with some minor changes.

Probably a +5 level adjustment.
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