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D&D 3E
600+ pages????Are they nuts? 
14th-Nov-2005 01:52 am
Could someone please tell me why there are 600+ page source books being written?
The Worlds Largest Dungeon is out of control. I can’t say if I like it or not yet but I would say that while its kind of a good idea there needs to be some more going on as far as story goes.

Now I see the new book from Monte Cook, Ptolus.
I love the stuff this guy works on, I mean I have yet to see something of his I have not liked. I can see where he is going with this new project as well. While it would be nice to have everything in one book and loads of great stuff (check out the previews) I think this is a bit much.

More and more I am seeing the pricing on books and all the other stuff and I can honestly say that there is no way I would have ever been able to afford to play RPGs back when I was 14. Even with the money I make now I can’t see spending that much money.

Is there anyone who agrees with me on this or am I just old and cheap?
Comments 
14th-Nov-2005 07:04 am (UTC)
It's hard to keep up, I agree. Especially with those fuckers at WofC keep re-releasing slightly changed versions of things I've already paid for.

Did you know that they realeased most of the the MM/PHB/DMG/XPH stuff as more or less free-ranged, but are sitting on the Mind Flayer?
14th-Nov-2005 07:06 am (UTC)
They're "sitting" on lots of monsters. There's nothing wrong with it. They've got certain properties that they want to keep associated with the company, and the specific D&D brand.
(no subject) - Anonymous - Expand
(no subject) - Anonymous - Expand
14th-Nov-2005 02:05 pm (UTC)
I'm pretty much on the same page as you. However, I'm capable of creating similar things myself, and my players have always loved the settings and campaigns I've created at home.

If I were good at running the game but not so good at creating it from whole cloth I would probably get a few of the better source books just so we could play.

And at 14.. well, I guess that'd be an extensive use of Christmas lists. :)
14th-Nov-2005 02:36 pm (UTC)
*LOL* It was enough to ask that they get me the red box set for Christmas

14th-Nov-2005 02:06 pm (UTC)
Nah, you're not old. I've been noticing the same thing. I remember being able to pick up the old boxed sets for around $8-$10 way, way back in the day. If I was a kid nowadays, I don't think I could've afforded my D&D habit.
14th-Nov-2005 02:38 pm (UTC)
I remember that too and that is why the game I am working on will be priced like the old books were.
(Deleted comment)
15th-Nov-2005 05:08 am (UTC)
Anonymous
wow is that what happened to Gary?
14th-Nov-2005 03:29 pm (UTC)
I'm running a chunk of the World's Largest Dungeon right now. While I wouldn't run it as a campaign in and of itself, for a good old-fashioned dungeon crawl as part of my existing campaign, it's great. I am lowering some Search and Disable Device DCs, because I think they're a bit high for the level of character this chunk is supposedly for, but so far it's working fine. The thin official storyline allows me to alter it to fit my campaign with a minimum of effort. So I guess it depends on how you intend to use it. Mostly I'm just using the "crunchy stuff," so for me it's fine as is.

And, well, printing books is expensive. Especially books on glossy paper with full-color illustrations and so on, which most of the D&D source material is. I couldn't afford to buy it all, either, and I don't. I buy what appeals to me, or what I think will be useful, and leave it at that. My players are free to bring things I may not have seen to my attention, but they also know that I can and will say no if what they're proposing seems broken or doesn't fit my campaign. It's perfectly possible to run a fun campaign using only the stuff in the three "core" books. They're expensive, sure, but $10 for the original set was quite a bit of money for a teenager back in the 1970s, too.
15th-Nov-2005 05:10 am (UTC)
Anonymous
That gives me an idea. I have been looking into printing fees for my book. I am going to get a price on a book using the Worlds Largest Dungeon as a guideline and see what it would cost to just print such a book.
14th-Nov-2005 04:53 pm (UTC)
In 1983, I bought the Red Box for $10.
In 2005, you can get the basic starter sety for $20.
According to the federal reserve bank of Minneapolis, $10 worth of goods in 1983 is worth $19.54 worth of goods in 2005.
Comparing prices between then and now is like apples and oranges.
15th-Nov-2005 05:11 am (UTC)
Anonymous
This has to be the best reply to something like this I have ever seen *LOL* Nice.
14th-Nov-2005 05:34 pm (UTC)
I am writing (or re-writing depending on how you look at it) my game world. These books will be under 200 pages.

On purpose.
15th-Nov-2005 05:12 am (UTC)
Anonymous
My book will max out at 250.
I will still only charge $20 for it tops.

Let me know when you have it done. I would love to check it out.
14th-Nov-2005 05:48 pm (UTC)
There's nothing wrong with huge sourcebooks. The problem is the fact that publishers then price them a lot higher than they do normal ones. Frankly, if I can buy a thousand-page novel for like $30, I shouldn't have to pay too much more for a D&D book.
And won't.
15th-Nov-2005 05:15 am (UTC)
Anonymous
I know that feeling is going around. I wonder if all these web pages with game settings will be the answer to over priced books?
15th-Nov-2005 05:16 am (UTC)
Crap I thought I was logged in. Sorry guys all those Anonymous posts were me.
15th-Nov-2005 04:12 pm (UTC)
When you get paid $8.00/hour at one of the campus dining halls and only work 12 hours a week, source book are the one of the last things that weed their way into your mind. As a result, I make up many of my own rules. A friend in high school was so pressed for cashed but loved roleplaying so much, he made his own system. That's love.
15th-Nov-2005 05:36 pm (UTC)
I'm completely offended by how expensive this shit is now (it's turned into one of those "can I have it for Christmas?" things for the youth), but my boyfriend made an excellent point--the binding and production of these books is not as cheap as it used to be, either. The pages are all full color instead of just some blue and black, and they don't fall apart as easily as they did in the old days.

That said, yes, prices are heinous.
15th-Nov-2005 06:32 pm (UTC)
One thing to keep in mind is that the price changes depending on how many books you are going to order. While printing one book with everything in it might cost them $80 to make a single copy that price drops when they say "Ok we need 5000"

I really don't want to beat on Cook and the guys who did WLD because I think over all they do a great job and I do like a lot of the work. However, RPGs are starting to cost way to much.
15th-Nov-2005 05:54 pm (UTC)
pricing isnt outrageous. Its people's hobbies. seeing as other hobbies you need to buy things for (model trains, war figurines etc. paint, engines for planes etc.)i dont see that it is different for this hobby. this hobby is cheaper than most and you get so many more hours of enjoyment out of it than the others. alot of these cmapaign setting things are creative expressions and are like art. you are paying for their creativity. therefore 120$ for a 600 page book isnt a big deal. it is more like a manual than a novel so comparing prices that way doesnt make sense. Most scientific manuals (which d&d canbe compared to bc of all the rules and laws of game mechanics) sell for about 120$. My grandfather is an ornithologist thats how i know! so really these booksarent priced outrageously.

alot of people mentioned how its too much for teenagers to pay...
im a teenager and I own almost all of the books (missing about four FR books, and shitty books that i dont want from the main source)
plus+
the market is targeted to people who are older 22-35, and these people can easily afford these books.

Lastly- im really excited about ptolus. it represents a work which is similar to what most dedicated gamers have compiled for their own fantasy games. if it sells well etc. and is succesful then it could be a sign that people are willing to buy exntensive models of campaign settings... not just brief synopsis. this will be a motivation for the game designers to enhance the quality of their products adn look into the complex nature of sociology, theology, biology, astronomy etc.
18th-Nov-2005 09:09 am (UTC)
Debatable about the more hours. Unlike model trains or fishing, role playing games involve more than one person so I would suspect the total time you get out of the books would be less not more... but that may be age group dependant too. Younger ages have more time to get together and play thus get more use out of products bought. You are correct in the mention of it being a hobby. It's a product classified as a luxury item and not a necessity... however, who says that people have to agree with the price that is put out? ^.~

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Debatable about the more hours. Unlike model trains or fishing, role playing games involve more than one person so I would suspect the total time you get out of the books would be less not more... but that may be age group dependant too. Younger ages have more time to get together and play thus get more use out of products bought. You are correct in the mention of it being a hobby. It's a product classified as a luxury item and not a necessity... however, who says that people have to agree with the price that is put out? ^.~

<<therefore 120$ for a 600 page book isnt a big deal>>
<<the market is targeted to people who are older 22-35, and these people can easily afford these books.>>

I would beg to differ as a college student, but then again, since I make up much of my own stuff (and most the gamers I knew graduated last year ^.^;) it doesn't really matter anyways. It -was- easier to get/buy stuff in high school. Now... hah. *chuckles* College owns my soooooooooul. >:p

I wouldn't say all of what people are paying for is creativity. I would love to see how much it costs for just the ink. XD Personaly, I wouldn't mind a few more b&w pics and a few less colored ones. Seeing the art is great and all, but for a few less bucks, I could deal with that.
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