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D&D 3E
Psionics question. 
12th-Sep-2005 01:33 pm
Can a wilder take a psion class to gain extra powers? Are these powers divisible to the psion class only, not allowing you to surge on them? If the powers are not divisible, can a 20th level wilder take levels in psion to gain additional 9th level powers?
12th-Sep-2005 09:12 pm (UTC)
I go by the following house rule:

Wizards cannot take sorcerer levels and vice versa. Why? Because its thematically cheesy, adds very little to the story, and honestly.... is nothing more then an excuse to power game. HOWEVER I would allow someone to convert all their sorcerer levels to wizard... kind of showing how thy are refining their power. They'd get all associated bonus feats etc.

The other way around would be more along the lines of a wizard going savage (he'd lose his bonus feats too). I'd let them keep whatever skills they attained, but have to choose skills from their new class from that point forward.

The same would apply for psion and wilder.
12th-Sep-2005 09:40 pm (UTC)
Since wilders only get one power every two level, I don't find that they're an equal comparison to the sorcerer and wizard...

...however, I do like the house rule that you implement, and I also find it to be horribly cheesy to mix the two. I was just trying to find opinions on the matter out of my own curiosity. I think the idea of refining or going savage though is interesting, to say the least.
13th-Sep-2005 02:15 am (UTC)
I see the concept and rationale of a sorcerer equating to a wilder. HOW they do psyonics / magic are smiliar (class abilities be damned)

Same with wizard and psion (who are VERY similar stats wise anyways)
12th-Sep-2005 09:51 pm (UTC)
How is a wizard/sorc combo powergaming? It seems to me that'd be a really weak character and you'd only want to multiclass like that if there was some roleplaying reason for it. Like maybe the character studies and studies and learns a bunch of divination spells as a wizard, but then occassionally gets pissed off and blasts things spontaneously as a sorcerer.
13th-Sep-2005 12:29 am (UTC)
Just grab the one level of Sorc for wand usage on prohibited schools. Otherwise it gimps ya. Hell, it kinda gimps ya then. I say if anybody wants that kinda hit, they're welcome to it.
13th-Sep-2005 02:14 am (UTC)
A good story can explain just about any class combination. And if that is the case, more power to ya.

But I find the idea of mixing the 2 classes to be somewhat paradoxal. The concept behind the sorcerer and wizard & how they do magic are contradictory (IMHO).
13th-Sep-2005 05:00 am (UTC)
So far as I know, the "sorcerers get magic from some draconic bloodline heritage" has never been made official, which I find all well and good.

The back-story for my campaign is that elves found arcane magic and developed sorcerers. Human research theories into magical phenomenae required the existance of arcane magic, and humans became wizards.

The elven perspective is that wizards have it the hard way. They can cast a whole lot of spells "blind," but never get to know spells the way sorcerers do. It's like casting a summoning spell versus having an animal companion.

I think it would be possible to develop a sorcerer / wizard back-story, with a character researching both philosophies in a hopeless attempt to finally unite their theories, but that's not a particularly effective adventurer.

It's possible to be multi-classed as a cleric of Ehlonnah and a druid, but I don't imagine it's terribly popular, either.

I don't see it as paradoxical. Just odd-ball.

13th-Sep-2005 05:07 am (UTC)
It sounds like it would make an interesting NPC scholar, at the very least.
14th-Sep-2005 10:17 am (UTC)
Very interesting. I like. =D
13th-Sep-2005 11:34 pm (UTC)
You, sir, are an idiot. To wit:

Examine an arcane spellcaster with 10 experience levels. Here are three cases:
10th level Sorcerer: knows 1 5th level spell, and can cast it a base of 3 times per day. Knows 4 second-level spells, and can cast them a total of six-plus-bonuses times per day. Has a great degree of flexibility in terms of how often spells may be cast, and which.
10th level Wizard: knows some indeterminate number of 5th level spells (let's say five), and can cast them in some combination equalling 2 of them cast per day (plus bonuses). Knows some indeterminate number of 3nd level spells (we'll call it eight), and can cast them 3 times per day. Has a great deal of flexibility in terms of number of spells known.
OR, with 5 levels of each:
Knows 2 second level spells which can be cast in some combination totally 4 per day. Knows some number (call it six) of 2nd level spells which can be cast twice per day. Knows a third level spell or two which can be cast once per day.

So we're left with the following:
Straight SR: 4 level 2, 6/day; 3 level 3, 6/day; 1 level 5, 3/day
Straight WZ: 10(?) level 2, 4/day; 8 level 3, 3/day; 5 level 5, 2/day
Combo SR/WZ: 8 level 2, total 6/day; 3(?) level 3, 1/day

How is this powergamery? It's not even nearly as good!
14th-Sep-2005 12:02 am (UTC)
By the way, let's see how this looks taken out to 20th level. Hi, I'd like to sign up for this program I heard about, which makes it so that my most powerful offensive spell is Cone of Cold. Look! I can cast Summon Monster V! Watch out, man, I'll Hold Monster your ass! Spells above 5th level are for wusses.
14th-Sep-2005 12:47 am (UTC)
Ouch, harsh.

I remember this post originally being about psionics too, lol.
14th-Sep-2005 02:02 am (UTC)
I'm such an asshole lately. I don't know what my deal is.

Either way, I'm still right. ^_~
14th-Sep-2005 03:00 am (UTC)
Wasn't judging right and wrong, just context. :-p
14th-Sep-2005 03:39 am (UTC)
You, sir, are an idiot. To wit:
Name calling? Why? What does this accomplish besides already inflating a your ego. *sigh* I don't enjoy sophomoric mentalities.

Now on to your argument. It is power gaming for 2 reasons. 1, as previously stated, you are gaining the ability to (wioth wands) negate a restriction based on specalist class. I.E. you take a lvls of sorcerer to gain the ability to use wands of your opposing school. THATS the epitomy of power gaming. The numbers are really irrelivant, so much as the concept behind it.

And please don't call people names. It really invalidates your argument.
14th-Sep-2005 08:45 am (UTC)
You're wrong; it doesn't invalidate my argument in the slightest. It undermines my credibility by making me look like a jackass. There's a big difference.

The numbers are not irrelevant; the numbers are the point. The numbers are exactly what powergaming is about. Even if you only take one level of Sorcerer, you're not really gaining- you're losing.

Claim one: A 20th level Wizard can cast 4 8th-level spells and 4 9th-level spells per day. A 19th-level Wizard/1st-level Sorcerer can cast only 3 spells of each of those levels. A 10th-level Wizard can cast 3 4th-level spells and 2 5th-level, whereas with a level of Sorcerer that's dropped down to 2 and 1. Tell me how this is anything but crippling?

Claim two: So what if you can use wands of the opposing school? If you're any level of good at powergaming to begin with, you won't need opposing wands. Big frickin' deal.

Claim three, part one: Even if using wands from an opposing school is handy, how does it compare in handiness terms?
Subpoint A: Does it compare in handiness terms to the benefit of a feat (metamagic/item creation/spell mastery)?
Subpoint B: Does it compare in handiness terms with being one level ahead in spells per day?
Subpoint C: How does it compare to the loss of a point of base attack bonus?
Claim three, part two: I contend that the ability to use wands of an opposing school is of feat-level usefulness. Thus, as the new Wizard/Sorcerer is losing a bonus feat, the trade is a fair one and not powergamery. I further contend that the ability to use wands from an opposing school is much, much less useful than the extra couple of spells per day the Wizard could otherwise cast (we're talking potentially about an extra fireball at low levels, an extra horrid wilting, an extra meteor swarm, an extra summon monster, an extra time stop- pretty useful stuff). I think that it is probably more useful than the point of base attack bonus; but this loss must be considered as added to the other two losses.

So, again, let's examine the gains as compared to the losses:
Ability to use opposed wandsExtra spells per day
An extra familiar*Speed of accessing new levels of spells
One point of Will saveOne bonus feat
Extra 0th-level and 1st-level spellsOne point of attack bonus
One point of AC and int for WZ familiar

I dunno, man. You tell me.

*Nobody's brought this up. The description of the Wizard class states that they can gain a familiar "in exactly the same manner as a sorcerer". The Sorcerer description never states that no more than one familiar may be possessed at a time- we must assume that familiars may only be acquired at the first level of SR or WZ, or to replace previously existing familiars. There is no logical reason why a character multiclassing into one arcane spellcasting class while possessing levels of another shouldn't be able to take a second familiar- though no matter what at least one of the two is doomed to being underpowered.
14th-Sep-2005 08:04 pm (UTC)
Um, I'm pretty sure you don't get another familiar. According to the SRD "Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master’s level". You don't get a second one, but your familiar doesn't drop in power.
14th-Sep-2005 08:58 pm (UTC)
Really? By "SRD", I assume you mean d20srd.org, right? I wonder- that might be one of the errata WotC threw into 3.5. Personally, I play straight third edition (as I've never had any problem with powergamers), and since my interpretation of the means of dealing with familiars would be to the player's detriment, I don't see a problem with it. Heh.
14th-Sep-2005 08:02 pm (UTC)
I any case, do you outlaw wizard/bards too for the same reason? Or how about wizard/assassins? Or any other class or PrC which has it's own spell list.

So you can use wands from other schools. Big deal. Putting a few ranks in Use Magic Device will allow the same thing. And it means if you want to cast that spell, you have to spend your hard-earned money (and maybe XP) on making a wand of some normally outlawed spell instead of on a spell that you actually specialize in. Using wands like that shouldn't really cause a problem.

So even if they are trying to powergame, they aren't really gaining any power.
12th-Sep-2005 09:13 pm (UTC)
I don't have the rules in front of me, but the short answer is "no". If you get powers and power points from multiple classes, they must be kept separate. The exception are prestige classes, and in those cases if you have more than one applicable psionic class you must pick which one to advance the manifesting level. So that 19th level Wilder taking a level of Psion gets 2 PP and 3 first level powers.
12th-Sep-2005 09:41 pm (UTC)
That's what I thought. Thank you for confirming that.

I thought I encountered the issue before with a psychic warrior/psion mix, but I got confused on the whole matter again.
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