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D&D 3E
For the sake of curiousity... am I the only one who views the Rogue… 
17th-Mar-2005 08:29 am
For the sake of curiousity... am I the only one who views the Rogue as a damage engine from hell if played properly?

17th-Mar-2005 01:39 pm (UTC)
A Rogue pumps out damage pretty nicely, especially at low levels, but it really depends on the situtation and the stupidity/weakness of the adversaries rather than the player's technique.
17th-Mar-2005 02:02 pm (UTC)
You're right about the low level thing. Take a nice... 5th level rogue with a "Flaming" Short sword or something akin. Flank the baddy with the party's meat truck, and deal 5d6 Damage (assuming you even hit)... which isn’t bad at all for a 5th level character.

Unfortunately I also realized that you're right about the stupidity/weakness thing. I wish there were some way to make the rogue's combat effectiveness correlate directly to the amount of cunning/skill/tactics that the players uses... I suppose that's where the power gaming comes in =/

17th-Mar-2005 01:56 pm (UTC)
You are correct. In our current game the group rogue (CR 17) is a death-dealer.

In a recent adventure I had managed to split the party as one group (the spellcasters) were working to seal off a dangerous cave, and the fighter and rogue were heading back to town. I figure I'd meet them at the door with a Death-Giant (Cr17), who was looking for an artifact they had recently stolen.

In the first round, the fighter failed a save and ran from the Death Giants fear ability, leaving the rogue stranded (and shaken). I started to think uh oh, maybe I overdid this encounter which I meant to be tough and bloody but not.. that bad.

Ok, so as rounds begin the rogue takes off backwards through the chamber he had just come out of, and did a quick hide (we decided he would be up over the door lintel pressed up against the walls like a ninja).

Death Giant pursues, fails a spot check. The rogue drops on him, executes a 'climb aboard' maneuver, and from then on out I couldn't shake him off of me, hit him with spell effects or anything else. Several rounds later the Death Giant was dead and the rogue player is saying "I make an acrobatics roll as I jump off from his corpse", just as the spellcasters and the recently recovered fighter burst in to rescue him.
17th-Mar-2005 02:06 pm (UTC)
That story brings a fucking tear to my eye. I love it, lol.

17th-Mar-2005 02:19 pm (UTC)
...if played properly?

Yes, in the game mechanics sense.
No, in the cooperative role-playing sense.
17th-Mar-2005 02:30 pm (UTC)
That could be argued.

Depends what you mean by "cooperative role-playing sense". Personally, I view a rogue as a more versatile fighter. I rarely never play a rogue as the "run away and hide then steal your gold when it's all clear" type. You could easily role-play a rogue as rough and tumble, grizzled, "solid snake" type mercenary. Hence you're combat hardened damage engine ;)

Game mechanics aside. Take away a fighter's big clunky armor/beatstick and he'll adapt to the rogue's style of fighting. Hit and Run, Tumble, Hide and Seek, etc.

17th-Mar-2005 02:51 pm (UTC)
i usually play a damage focused rogue. the problem is that a mere extra 1d6 every two levels isn't nearly enough. Also the lack of BAB hurts you pretty badly. As soon as you can get some magic weapons or ways to make your targets easier to hit, you're absolutely golden.
17th-Mar-2005 03:18 pm (UTC)
*laughs* Not enough? Let's say I have a 5th level Human Rogue with an "(Insert random +1d6 Elemental Damage Enchantment) Elven Thinblade" who has hit a flanked target. You're saying that 1d8 + 4d6 damage isn't enough for one strike? 0.o

Weapon Finesse works wonders for the lack of BAB. I just assign it to a weapon that will almost always be my "standard" and I'm pretty much set for guerilla combat with an acceptable Attack Bonus and AC. As with almost all gaming systems... bow down and worship Dexterity, for it is your god. It's hands down the most powerful stat in the D&D game.

I think the weakest thing about the rogue is the fact that he gets no bonus feats. Granted he gets abilities out the ass, it would be nice to see the "jack of all trades" character actually have more access to feats.

17th-Mar-2005 03:06 pm (UTC)
And its not just weapon damage he's a monster at - try sneak attackign with a ray of enfeeblement...
17th-Mar-2005 03:19 pm (UTC)
I must be missing something? 0.o

17th-Mar-2005 03:22 pm (UTC)
I've always liked rogues in D and D because of the huge amount of ways one could be roleplayed, maybe only equal to a fighter in that sense. However, as most anyone who has played world of warcraft for more then an hour, rogues have been somewhat killed for me by the huge amount of 12 year old "omg u r teh nub" people.
17th-Mar-2005 03:30 pm (UTC)
A game by the name of "Dark Ages" is what killed any sense of Rogue, Fighter, Priest, Wizard, or Monk for me X.x

It's actually also where I first got the inspiration to turn a Rogue into a killing machine... the game implanted the seeds of powergaming in me and I've yet to remove them all.

17th-Mar-2005 03:24 pm (UTC)
it REALLY depends on your campaign.

Quite frankly, any moderate level armor-wearing type who hasn't gotten at least one level of Fortification of on their armor is in trouble. But beyond that, there are many, many creature types that are immune to critical hits (and therefore also Sneak attack damage).

In a campaign that features anyone who is immune to critical hits, the Rogue is in trouble.

Invisiblity and hide is nice, but they only let sneak attack through on the FIRST attack, not iterative attacks (Greater Invis gets you more, but it is very transient. And harder for a rogue to get). Even a 10d6 sneak attack is only 35 points extra. Which isn't all that much compared to the fighter's higher iterative attacks, higher damage bonus from strength, Greater Weapon Spec, and Power Attack.

Flanking is great for the rogue, but smart opponents do what they can to fight in a square, or use features and 5-foot steps to avoid flanks.

17th-Mar-2005 03:32 pm (UTC)
I've never experienced much high level play, so I wouldn't know. All my experience has been between levels 1 and 10. Mostly levels 1-6. Campaigns don't last very long in my neck of the woods =/

17th-Mar-2005 03:59 pm (UTC)
Let me relate a story from my game last night. We went into a battle with a plan, the cleric was going to cast freedom of movement on me and the wizard would drop in an evards black tentacles.

I was able to casually make my way though all the grappled opponents and shank them to death, except the troll, who didn't stay grappeled long or often. Grappled people are denied their dex bonus and my hasted urgosh wielding dwarven rogue brought the pain.

Let me tell you, claw, claw, rend from a troll really, really, sucks. I went from 70hp to 4, in one round and had to get very far away from the troll and try to drink a potion.
17th-Mar-2005 05:43 pm (UTC)
I play a ghostwise halfling rogue and with my sneak attack, I killed a lizard man. :)
17th-Mar-2005 07:21 pm (UTC)
... what, 25 comments in and we haven't touched on dual-wielding yet? In the game I'm running right now (where the PCs are just now hitting level 5), there is a Ranger/Rogue with Ranger dual-wielding. She's rather atypical in that she has a 16 Strength and only something like a 14 Dexterity (and I think it was 13 to start with). Now, these are all first-time D&Ders in my group, so she is not powergaming by any stretch of the imagination. But she is killing everything around her with alarming speed.
"Oh no," I think. "This Ogre is going to kill at least one PC and he's the first encounter of the dungeon! What was I thinking!" One good hide/move silently check, a hurled javelin, and a high initiative roll later, and that's about it. Sneak attack + Favored Enemy: Giants did for him.
All of which is a long way of saying: a properly played Rogue can be a damage machine. Dual-wielding is an excellent way to multiply that damage. The only caveat is the one you already know: mediocre AC and HP mean the Rogue can't afford to be on the receiving end of this stuff.

And I can't advocate a level or four of Ranger highly enough ... you lose out on Sneak attack D6s, but the martial weapon proficiency, dual-wielding, boosted HP, BAB, and Fort saves, not to mention the potential of an animal companion scout/flanking-buddy, and no significant slowdown in roguely skills ... well, I like it.
17th-Mar-2005 09:29 pm (UTC)
Rogue/Ranger is a great combo, IMO, I agree. With what you said, not to mention the ability not only to find traps and pick locks, but put that on the ability to track, and (s)he's a definete help.

Rogue/Ranger/Deepwood Sniper/Arcane Archer would be a lot of fun too. Tack in the imporoved ranged sneak attack, which ups your ranged sneak to 60 ft...
(Deleted comment)
17th-Mar-2005 11:43 pm (UTC)
You most certainly are not.

If played properly.

If played wrong you're a corpse.
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