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D&D 3E
Deity question 
17th-Jan-2005 04:41 am
I'm trying to make a deity to stick into the Forgotten Realms Pantheon. However, I've run into what seems to be a pretty puzzling rules contradiction. According to Faiths and Pantheons, Deities and Demigods, AND the System Reference Document:

"Most deities (all those with 20 outsider Hit Dice) have a natural armor bonus equal to their divine rank +13."

Now, I perused through the deity entries to check how this works. Here's some examples as they are listed in Faiths and Pantheons:
Mystra: Divine rank 18, natural armor bonus +31 (from 18 + 13 = 31)
Azuth: Divine rank 10, natural armor bonus +23 (from 10 + 13 = 23)
Torm: Divine rank 8, natural armor bonus +21 (from 8 + 13 = 21)
Oghma: Divine rank 16, natural armor bonus +29 (from 16 + 13 = 29)

Anyone see the problem yet? Oghma is the ONLY deity in my list that has outsider hit dice. Mystra, Azuth, and Torm all ascended to godhood from being mortals. They are classified as outsiders, but don't have outsider hit dice listed in their entries. However, the +13 is still being applied to them just as it is for all the other "regular" deities who have 20 outsider hit dice.

Now, if the entry said "All gods who are outsiders and have 20 hit dice get 13 + divine rank as their natural armor bonus" I would understand. But every single source was worded exactly the same way, and seemed to emphasize that 20 of the HD had to be racial outsider hit dice...

Anyone have an answer for this? Am I mistaken about something? If not, comment so I don't feel so alone in my frustration...

Cross posted a bit, sorry if you see this more than once!
17th-Jan-2005 01:17 pm (UTC)
I'm fairly sure it was anyone who had 20 HD who was also an outsider. Of course the act of becoming a god seems to make you an outsider, so cyric, Mystra and Kelmevor should be outsiders, and if they made it to 20th level before ascension, they get the +13.

Why does a god's ac matter anyway?
17th-Jan-2005 07:40 pm (UTC)
"I'm fairly sure it was anyone who had 20 HD who was also an outsider."

But, that's not what it says. It specifically says "outsider HD." Also, it gives the breakdown of hit dice in the entry, and no, they did not change to outsider hit dice. When a creature becomes an outsider, it is usually just the _racial_ hit dice that changes since outsiders generally advance by character level. However, I understand it now, see some of the below comments.

Why does the AC matter? As I was making the god I found this contradiction. I don't like inconsistencies because it usually means I'm missing something, or don't understand it properly. I figured I was misunderstanding something about HD, and wanted to clarify. :)
18th-Jan-2005 03:05 am (UTC)
When a monk becomes 20th level, they are changed to an outsider. That makes them an outsider with 20 hit dice? The only outsiders with 20 hit dice are greater angels or demons, etc.
17th-Jan-2005 04:09 pm (UTC)
"Most deities (all those with 20 outsider Hit Dice) have a natural armor bonus equal to their divine rank + 13."

So most deities have divine rank +13 natural armor (as illustrated by the 4 deities you list). There are some deities that do not have this bonus (I don't know any offhand, but some may exist, they won't have 20 outsider HD though).

If a deity has 20 outsider Hit Dice, it will always have the bonus.
17th-Jan-2005 07:31 pm (UTC)
Aaah, I was making a logic error! thanks, that makes sense now. :)
17th-Jan-2005 04:25 pm (UTC)
Anyone have an answer for this?


"most deities" means that deities with less natural armor than +13 can have +13, while those that have a higher natural AC (i.e., Bahamut) can keep their natural AC.

And, of course, a deitiy whose portfolio includes being vulnerable might not get the bonus -- but there's no reason that a Wiz20/clrc20/sor20 can't have the same natural armor as a outsider20/wiz20/sor20.

17th-Jan-2005 07:30 pm (UTC)
...Oh, ok, I think I see what you mean. Basically, I was making a logic error, right? I saw that "all deities with 20 outsider HD" get the +13, and my brain interpreted it to mean that ONLY deities with 20 or more HD get +13...

GAR. Why is DND so unclear about these things sometimes?
17th-Jan-2005 11:01 pm (UTC)
Because it's being extended to areas it wasn't thought to go by folk who didn't write the system.

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