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D&D 3E
Quickie: Munchkinism Ahoy! 
11th-Nov-2004 09:56 am
The progression of said character is so:


Now.. we all know how the Mystic Theurge class works, it's one of the most broken friggin prestige classes there is. If not.. here's the breakdown: Each level you gain as a Mystic Theurge, you gaine +1/+1 spellcasting level to your Divine/Arcane spellcasting levels.

When you hit level 2 as a spellsword, you assign +1 spellcasting level to one of your previous spellcasting classes. If I assign this +1 level to Mystic Theurge (which IS a spellcasting class), does this mean that I get the +1/+1 spellcasting level to my Divine/Arcane spellcasting levels?

Loophole in the rules that allows me to make a ridiculous character, or something I'm just missing?

The exact wording:

Mystic Theurge Spells Per Day:
+1 lvl of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 lvl of existing divine spellcasting class

This trend continues every level for 10 levels.

Spellsword Spells Per Day:
+1 level of existing class

Problem: "She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting".

Technically... the way I'm reading this, a Spellsword could level up as a Spellsword and still gain the benefits of the Mystic Theurge class (+1/+1 Arcane/Divine) without ever dumping any levels into Mystic Theurge again.

A Cleric/Wizard/MT/Spellsword could indeed run around wearing a suit of mithral fullplate, casting Arcane and Divine spells at the same rate/level, and have no armor penalty assigned to his Arcane spells.
11th-Nov-2004 04:28 pm (UTC)
I'd say that this isn't permissable, or else the Mystic Theurge class would be pointless. Increase either your cleric level or your wizard level when to get level 2 in spellsword.

Other than that, I think the Mystic Theurge class balances out. Sure, you have lots of different spells, but the loss of high-level spells that a "pure" caster has access to makes up for it.
11th-Nov-2004 04:48 pm (UTC)
The Mystic Theurge class wouldn't be pointless, it's still the only class that can "level up" your Arcane and Divine spellcasting levels at the same rate.

Spellsword is leveling them both up at the same time.. but indirectly, through the use of the Mystic Theurge Class as a medium. According to the wording in teh books.. it seems kind of feasable. So I'm not sure..

As a DM I'd not allow it, but as a player.. I'm contemplating presneting it to my DM.

11th-Nov-2004 05:57 pm (UTC)
The Mystic Theurge class wouldn't be pointless, it's still the only class that can "level up" your Arcane and Divine spellcasting levels at the same rate.

Exactly - it's what makes this class unique.

So if it was indirectly possible to other classes as well, why should anyone take more than one level in the Mystic Theurge class when you could get all the other benefits of another prestige class as well?

So my answer as both a DM and a player would be not just no, but Hell No!
11th-Nov-2004 04:48 pm (UTC)
Mystic Theurge isn't all that broken. You can look at a full build; they actually aren't that powerful. And they lose turning, hit points, etc.

REgardless, no it doesn't work that way. You increase in one class that gives you a spell list. The MT doesn't give a spell list, just increases.

The True Necro is, by the by, a broken class. So are any of the PrCs that give you 9 levels of spells in a 10 level class. But the MT? Nah, not broken.
11th-Nov-2004 04:50 pm (UTC)
I think there's a rule somewhere that says when you gain a prestige class that grants spellcasting ability as per another class, that you gain spells as one of your prior STANDARD spellcasting classes, not prestige classes. If there isn't, I would institute a house rule that that's the way it works. I do know that there's a rule that says prestige classes are optional and up to the DM to allow or dissallow as appropriate for their particular game. I wouldn't allow this.
11th-Nov-2004 08:25 pm (UTC)
There's not specific rule for that (there should be something though). Classes like MT aren't "spellcasting classes" though, so the spellcasting increase of another prestige class doesn't apply. (A class has to grant spells for it to be a "spellcasting class").

The place this gets abusable are for classes like Ur Priest (CD) which is a prestige class gives an insane spellcasting progress as it is. You could take a level of it, and then use another prestige class to increase it.
11th-Nov-2004 05:03 pm (UTC)
What are the prerequisites for Spellsword? If it says ability to cast arcane spells, then the wizard class would count for the purposes of spellcasting. The only way mystic theurge would reasonably count would be if spellsword required divine and arcane spell usage, or if a requirement for spellsword was the mystic theurge prestige class, which it doesn't. This is not a nerf, just anti-munchkin.

Lets take another example. If you were a 13th level cleric, 3rd level wizard, 3rd level thief (19 character levels) and you wanted to take the arcane trickster prestige class, you would continue progression in your wizard spell class, but your cleric class would be unnaffected

Now, if you took wizard and cleric, then took spellsword, this would add to your spell progression in your wizard class, then when you took a level of theurge, it would then raise your progression even further, so your wizard progression would pull ahead of your cleric progression, but adding a level of spellsword would not increase your cleric levels.

1 cleric1
2 cleric2
3 cleric3
4 wizard1/cleric3
5 wizard2/cleric3
6 wizard3/cleric3
7 theurge-wizard 4/cleric4
8 theurge-wizard 5/cleric5
9 spellsword-wizard 6/cleric5
10 spellsword-wizard 7/cleric5
11 theurge-wizard 8/cleric6

Make sense?
11th-Nov-2004 08:31 pm (UTC)
Prerequistes for Spellsword are BAB +4, Proficieny with all simple and martial weapons and with all army, and the ability to cast 2-level arcane spells.

Of these, a Cleric 3/Wizard 3/MT 1 can meet only the last requirement. Their BAB will be 2 + 1 + 0 = +3 and they won't have proficieny with all martial weapons.

They might have the BAB if they do that weird optional rule with fractional BAB, but I think that rule messes with the requirements of a lot of prestige classes.
11th-Nov-2004 06:20 pm (UTC) - The ability of this powerful class
Spell sword with mystci theurge is very powerful indeed IF the DM allows it. I myself would like to challenge myself as a DM and see if I can handle that. I think it would be fun to give this ability to a player who realized this, BECAUSE THEY REALIZED IT! Don't nerf or anti-munchkin it, just work around it. If the other players can't realize this, then they shouldn't complain. there are lots of briken classes, the real question should be, how can I handle this? If you can't think of a way then don't allow, it, but if your intel;iigent enough to find a way of fixing this, then do it and allow your PC to think he is powerful...till he hits an anitmagic field
11th-Nov-2004 08:08 pm (UTC)
First, double check the prereqs for spellsword, that doesn't look right.

Second, you can't up MT with Spellsword. The Spellsword adds a level to an "arcane spellcasting class". I'd have to dig out where it's stated, but "arcane spellcasting class" is defined as a class that grants arcane spells. MT does not grant any spells (it only affects your spellcasting level), and thus is not an arcane spellcasting class.

The rules are carefully worded like that to avoid people doing exactly what your player is trying to do.

MT isn't broken, in my opinion, it's actually less powerful than most caster prestige classes.
11th-Nov-2004 08:21 pm (UTC)
Thank you, I was trying to find a way to put that all morning.
11th-Nov-2004 10:20 pm (UTC)
Technically the +1arc +1div are considered a benifit of the MT thus would not be gained from increasing the MT class with the Spellsword Class. Not a loophole at all just a very loose interpretation of the last part of that sentence.
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