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D&D 3E
Half-dragon question 
2nd-Mar-2004 11:22 am
My friends & i are starting a new campaign & i wanted to do something different for my character...my choices were either a stayr rogue or a half-dragon fighter...i ended up with a half-black dragon/half-moon elf rogue [*evil grin*]
but my question is this...how do i calculate the skill points per level? do i just take the rogue class skill points or do i take those & add the dragon/half-dragon skill points?

i really don't know...any help would be great =)

...now as a half-dragon w/wings would it be wise to take feats like flyby attack & hover? [for my first level feat i took Clinging Breath*]

thanks in advance
Later graves
Comments 
2nd-Mar-2004 08:41 am (UTC)
wow! that'll be a cool char but a BITCH as far as ECL, huh? what's the ECL for a half-dragon?
2nd-Mar-2004 09:01 am (UTC)
as far as i can tell it only has an ECL if the base creature has an ECL like if i used a Drow the ECL would be 2..but i could be wrong...my friends agree w/this statement...so who am i to argue? lol
2nd-Mar-2004 11:03 am (UTC)
Half-dragons have a level adjustment of +3. It's right under the CR adjustment in the 3.5 edition Monster Manual.

Trust me, half-dragons are way too powerful not to have a level adjustment.
3rd-Mar-2004 10:55 am (UTC)
yea i kinda figured the no ECL was wrong
but i dont have the 3.5 Monster manual & i will never buy it, i feel its a waste of money [considering i bought the 3.0 one a long while ago...why buy a second one]
2nd-Mar-2004 08:47 am (UTC)
I would have gone for for the Saytr for role play value, but now that you've chosen....

the feats are good...

Remember however that half-dragon is a template, not an ECL, so it does not grant any skill points, hit points, attack bonus, save bonuses, feats etc. unless otherwise stated in the template description.

Note that an ECL character, like an ogre does get a progression, though not exactly like a character class.

I would either buy or look at a copy of "Savage Species" for more information. It's a really handy book and a great purchase.
2nd-Mar-2004 08:57 am (UTC)
i really wanted to go w/the Satyr but our party would have been kinda weak [a cleric, rogue, & sorceror...all level 1 & human]..plus i want to save the satyr idea for a game were i don't have to DM & can role play it just fine =)

..the next levels i go up...i will take Flyby attack & hover

as for the skill points the back of the Monster Manual says: "A half-dragon has 6 skill points, plus its intelligence modifier, per hit dice. Treat skills from the base creature's list as class skills & other skills as cross-class skills. If the creature has a class, it gains skills for class levels normally."

i dunno if it means in addition too the half-dragon template or just class skills...that is my problem
2nd-Mar-2004 09:41 am (UTC)
"i dunno if it means in addition too the half-dragon template or just class skills...that is my problem"

..templates gain no class skills unless otherwise stated, so those 6+int points are what you get.
2nd-Mar-2004 12:01 pm (UTC)
This is only if you creature has monster hit dice. Like if you added it to an ogre, instead of 2+ etc, for its 4 ogre hit dice it is 6. Also it says to ignore this for classes and use the class skil points instead.
2nd-Mar-2004 12:16 pm (UTC)
Everyone else said what I was thinking, so I'll lend the weight of my opinion in agreement here.
3rd-Mar-2004 10:43 am (UTC)
thanKS for the help
i fixed my character last night & he is doing well in the game...
2nd-Mar-2004 01:15 pm (UTC)
that means if you make a half-dragon half-'something that has multiple hit dice' the skill points per hit die for those are replaced with the half-dragon amount.

So in your case, since your other half is an elf, you get nothing, all your hit dice are from class levels.

Also, note that if you were supposed to be making a character of equal power to the other party members, you did not. They are all character level 1, you are character level 4.
3rd-Mar-2004 10:46 am (UTC)
thanks for the help

yea i know bout the power thing...my character isn't doing much at the moment...so far he is the quite drunk that likes to steal from towns people...im waiting for the rest of the party to get to level 4 or 5 before the real fun begins *evil grin* MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA
3rd-Mar-2004 12:31 pm (UTC)
If you are using 3.5 the level difference will tend to narrow since they will be getting a lot more experience for encounters than you will. :)
3rd-Mar-2004 06:37 pm (UTC)
personally i hate 3.5 & if i had the money i wouldn't waste it on that
but i run extremely well balanced games...well someone could play as an Ocean Stryder [ECL 35] and i could balance it out pretty nicely
but thanks for the info on 3.5 =) but i dont have balance issues
3rd-Mar-2004 06:46 pm (UTC)
Um, I guess you aren't getting my point. Under 3.0 rules you'd be taking an equal split of the XP, and so people who are behind mostly stay behind (though obviously at really low levels the gap isn't the % change in XP needed for each level will mean they will tend to catch up. Under 3.5 rules, each person earns XP according to their level, so when you have a party of mixed level characters the level gap will tend to narrow as the player who has a high level (the half-dragon in this case) will get way less experience points for an encounter, than the lower level characters. In general it is a really good change to the system, though in extreme cases it is fairly broken if you just apply it mechanically, i.e. a 4th level character that is adventuring with a bunch of 20th level characters who fight a CR 17 monster and kill it is going to get way too many xp. :) But for the usual case of some of your players show up less frequently than others and you want everybody to stay at roughly the same levels, the catch-up nature of the new system works really well.
2nd-Mar-2004 01:58 pm (UTC)
i dunno if it means in addition too the half-dragon template or just class skills...that is my problem

You're playing 3.0.

The half-dragon template's referenes to feats and skill points _only_ apply if you have "levels" of a monster. For example, a half-dragon ogre would gain two feats and ( 6+int * [4+3] ) skill points. (In 3.5, everyone gains feats at the same rate.)

Your half-dragon half-elf doesn't have any hit dice, so gains feats, skill points, and other "core attributes" from your class levels only. Being a half-dragon only grants you the specifically enumerated bonuses, such as the breath weapon and associated immunity, natural armor and attacks, ability score adjustments, et al.

You should direct your DM to the "Races" section of the 3.0 DMG. It includes information on running characters of powerful levels. Which, actually, reminds me of something.

i really wanted to go w/the Satyr but our party would have been kinda weak [a cleric, rogue, & sorceror...all level 1 & human]..plus i want to save the satyr idea for a game were i don't have to DM & can role play it just fine =)

1st level characters should not ordinarily have anyone with an ECL among them. Doing so is, in effect, giving one of the player's a higher-level character. Characters are "balanced" When everyone's total ECL is equal. If you're playing a 1st level fighter half-dragon, with a +3 ECL, everyone else should be playing either other races with +3 ECL, 4th level 'demihuman' characters, or some combination in between.

(If you're going to pick up another book, I recommend Unearthed Arcana. It's got a slew of cool rules, including one to reduce the ECL of a powerful race through advancement.)


3rd-Mar-2004 10:52 am (UTC)
...thanks for the help

w/the other players & the level balance...i know all thise...but i usually like to run my characters as...hmmm...mysterious...they don't really do anything until the party gets to be a higher level...they act as more guides then actually characters...as for the rest of the party they do all the work & after one night of gaming they have already leveled to 3 or 5...i dont remember which

but thanks for the info
2nd-Mar-2004 01:49 pm (UTC)
Remember however that half-dragon is a template, not an ECL, so it does not grant any skill points, hit points, attack bonus, save bonuses, feats etc. unless otherwise stated in the template description.

You do NOT get any of those things from powerful races with ECLs higher than +0, either. ECLs only grant experience points, wealth, and determine what your "level" is for gaining XP or going up a level. An ECL is wholly a bad thing, and doesn't grant anything good whatsoever; it's a penalty to balance out the advantage of whatever else you have.

Savage Species is in a lot of ways a wretched book. It's not 3.5e compatible, the racial progressions are wholly unsupported outside of that book, and, IMO, it's not a worthwhile purchase.

3rd-Mar-2004 06:46 am (UTC)
"Remember however that half-dragon is a template, not an ECL, so it does not grant any skill points, hit points, attack bonus, save bonuses, feats etc. unless otherwise stated in the template description." -me

"You do NOT get any of those things from powerful races with ECLs higher than +0, either." -you

actually, there is a chart in savage species that gives your starting feats, skill points, hit dice save bonuses and feats for ECL characters such as ogres, lizardmen, Succubi etc.

I played a succubi in a balanced game with the rules in savage species that let you play monsters as races and gain level as the "monster" I got skill points every couple levels, I got feats every couple levels special abilities and attack bonus increases. It works just like a class. Most monsters just already have it built in. For example, ogres have a feat (maybe two, don't have my book on me) in the feats section. This is the one(two) chosen for them by the monstrous manual, but you can pick another instead as a character.
3rd-Mar-2004 11:13 am (UTC)
actually, there is a chart in savage species...

Yes, I know there is. Savage Species is a 3.0 only splat-book that breaks up the Level Adjustment and base HD advancement into a level progression. IMNSHO, it's the kind of inelegant rules cludge that makes "official" rules no more better than anything else.

More to the point, Savage Species is an option, not core. Unless you are using Savage Species or some other variant, picking a powerful race doesn't give you anything. Savage Species characters don't have a Level Adjustment per-se; Savage Species is a replacement for the "powerful race" rules in 3.0, which have been replaced by the LA/ECL rules in 3.5.

This is the one(two) chosen for them by the monstrous manual, but you can pick another instead as a character.

Actually, NPCs can pick different feats as well. There's no reason at all that, for example, you couldn't play an Ogre with a different feat selection.
3rd-Mar-2004 10:54 am (UTC)
lol thanks for the Savage Species info...too bad either way cause Im broke...and as for 3.5 i hate it..lol
but thanks
2nd-Mar-2004 09:38 am (UTC)
Hee! I was /just/ looking at the half-dragon, so I can tell you! The information for the half-dragon template is on pg. 146 of the MM. You start out with the base creature (your moon elf) and follow the instructions. The skill points are used /only/ for the dragon's racial levels, not for it's class levels. I suppose that means you'd use them if you had a base creature with multiple HD. *shrugs* Also, the ECL is 3. That's a little confusing in the MM, but it says it in the Savage Species Template.
3rd-Mar-2004 10:49 am (UTC)
thank you...=)
i wish i had Savage Species...but alas i am broke [and spent my last amount of money on Big Eyes, Small Mouth books]
the MM is a bit confusing for the template...but i got it all worked out now...but now i know & i dont think i will be playing a half-dragon again anytime soon...im gonna stick to Satyrs, dwarves, elves, & fey'ris for a long while...lol

thanks again
2nd-Mar-2004 09:42 am (UTC) - Hello
Here's the link for the appropriate page in the 3.5 SRD.
http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/srd/srd_revised_html/MonstersH-I.html

The level adjustment is +3 on top of whatever the base race is.

How did you get wings anyway? You have to be large to get wings through the half-dragon template.

Good luck with your rogue.
3rd-Mar-2004 10:40 am (UTC) - Re: Hello
yea i know that thing bout the wings...but for reasons in my plot line [im also DMing] the wings are essental [i would have taken a large base race...but i didnt want the character looking like ass, & some of my friends have had characters that look like ass...& you wish they would die every minute you play lol]...that is why there are wings...

as for the +3 thank you...i didn't know...it mentioned nothing bout that on the template in the 3.0 monster manual

thanks for the help
2nd-Mar-2004 08:11 pm (UTC)
If a party of first level demi-humans playing standard classes isn't powerful enough, your DM is doing it wrong.

3rd-Mar-2004 10:42 am (UTC)
its not that they arent powerful enough...its that HP wise was kinda weak...& i usually scale the first few battles [until the reach level 2] down...i wanted to give them a challenge instead of baby-steps
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