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D&D 3E
reach spell + chain spell 
23rd-Jun-2007 12:27 pm
kobolds ate my baby
Ok, quick little question to you guys. Of the 'would you allow this?' nature. It is mostly hypothetical.

Metamagic feat 'reach spell' Complete Divine p. 84.
Metamagic feat that turns a touch spell into a ray-spell with a range of 30 ft. "The spell effectivly becomes a ray, so you must succeed on a ranged touch attack to bestow the spell upon the recipient." +2 spell levels

Metamagic feat 'chain spell' Complete Arcane p. 76.
Metamagic feat that allows you to 'chain' a spell that is not a touch spell, so that it affects more targets than one, giving the primary target fulle effect and secondary targets half effect. "Any spell that specifies a single target and have a range greater than touch can be chained." +3 spell levels

Can a touch spell, metamagiced with reach spell - to turn it into a ray, in its turn be metamagiced into a chained spell as the spell with reach applied is not a touch spell. Let's say a Cure light/medium/serious wounds. Of course with the +5 spell level price (or turning attempts if both are divine metamagiced) and all.
Comments 
23rd-Jun-2007 12:10 pm (UTC)
No. Ranged touch is a form of touch, so you would not be able to use chain spell on a ranged touch spell.
23rd-Jun-2007 12:35 pm (UTC)
That's actually not correct.

While "touch" and "ranged touch" use the same attack mechanics, they do not mean the same thing. "Ranged touch" has no meaning when it comes to actually defining a range increment. A spell's range is "touch," "short," "medium," "long," or--on occasion--a set length, like "60 ft."

A spell with the Reach Spell feat applied to it may use a ranged touch mechanic to hit, but it now has a range of 30 ft. This makes it applicable for Chain Spell, or any other feat/effect that requires a "range greater than touch."
23rd-Jun-2007 12:40 pm (UTC)
Agreed. I see no reason not to allow this, presuming one wants to use up a 6th level spell slot to cast one and a half cure light wounds :)
23rd-Jun-2007 01:17 pm (UTC)
I'd allow it.

Personally I think using a 6th level spell slot to (let's say) cast Cure Light Wounds at a range of 30 feet is slightly stupid, but who am I to judge? :P

Personally, I'd stick with the spells in place rather than try to amp up new ones in this fashion.
23rd-Jun-2007 01:52 pm (UTC)
I could actually see a purpose to that.
Namely, bard. They don't have a mass cure wounds spell of any type.

I'd still be wondering what the heck a bard would be doing with chain spell, but maybe it was coming from a metamagic rod.
23rd-Jun-2007 02:22 pm (UTC)
A bard in my campaign had it. She had a feat or prestige class ability that allowed her to apply metamagic effects without raising the level, so long as she took extra time, so before they went into the cave, she'd dance for ten minutes (or so) and cast a chained, extended buff spell.
(Deleted comment)
23rd-Jun-2007 10:38 pm (UTC)
You are correct. For shame, my knowledge of my precious bard failed me! NOOO! Now I must convince ten people that I just committed seppuku.
24th-Jun-2007 05:46 am (UTC)
That is true, but are there not Bardic PrC's that give healing songs? If you're really hellbent on healing something, I'd think bardic music would be better than a spell slot. :P Rod'ed or not.
23rd-Jun-2007 02:41 pm (UTC)
Forget about it being a 6th level slot. The situation for concern is using five Turn Undead attempts in order to cast Cure X Wounds as a chained, ranged touch spell.

So long as Nightsticks aren't readily available, I would have no problem with the combination. However, I'm not sure that ray spells can be chained, given what I've seen of the feat and the spell blocks for ray spells.

From the feat: "Any spell that specifies a single target..."

From Ray of Frost (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rayOfFrost.htm):
Evocation (Cold)
Level:  	Sor/Wiz 0
Components: 	V, S
Casting Time: 	1 standard action
Range: 	Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: 	Ray
Duration: 	Instantaneous
Saving Throw: 	None
Spell Resistance: 	Yes


Target: is missing from the block.
23rd-Jun-2007 03:18 pm (UTC)
To confirm: I just checked the PH and under Ray in the Magic chapter its says you don't need to be able to see who you are shooting at unlike "a targetted spell".
23rd-Jun-2007 08:47 pm (UTC)
Going the Divine Metamagic route would still cost two feats, and if my players were really taking DMM (Chain) and DMM (Reach) I would just be thankful they weren't using those turning attempts to Quicken or Persist things. The option seems underpowered whichever way you look at it.
23rd-Jun-2007 11:43 pm (UTC)
Oh, it was never about the most powerful thing. Just one of hypotetical interest. :)
23rd-Jun-2007 11:40 pm (UTC)
Good catch.
24th-Jun-2007 05:45 am (UTC)
It doesn't say target, because Rays require a ranged touch attack, which is by definition a target.

Also, I've less experience than some others with the spending of turning attempts to boost metamagic, but I see your point. Though, regardless, I think it's still wasteful when they can be added elsehwere. :]
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