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D&D 3E
squeezing and knowledge skills 
22nd-Oct-2005 04:10 pm
wicked handclasp
Ok, got a few more questions (we're having an alday RP thing right now ^_^). Squeezing has come up often in our group recently, and we're having a hard time clarifying it. Our DM wanted to make us squeeze past allies instead of move through their square (in combat). On pg 147 of the PHB, it says you can move through an allies square, but he is having a hard time understanding why that is ok, but you have to squeeze past opponents. He thinks you have to squeeze past everyone. Also, he moved an opponent into an allies square and left them there, saying that they were squeezed. But I think that squeezing just has to do with moving, ending in someone else's square is still an illegal move. Anyone have a good way of explaining this?

Also, I think the whole knowledge skill is just set up poorly. You have to roll a knowledge check to remember something, identify a creature, etc. So, if you pass, that means you know the info. But if the situation ever comes up again, you should'nt have to roll right? it is already established that you know it. So, when do you get to reroll? When you put more points in that skill? And does the roll represent what you actually know or what you "remember"? If I correctly identify a wriath, will I always be able to correctly identify them? If I remember a bit of infor about them, will I always have the knowledge at my disposal (assuming nothing unnatural makes me forget)? You see my problem. How do you handle knowledge skills?
Comments 
22nd-Oct-2005 09:26 pm (UTC)
Maybe because an ally will willingly make room for you while an opponent will not?
22nd-Oct-2005 10:47 pm (UTC)
in responce to the knowledge thing: thats where the line can be blurred. you're character can know things, but knlowledge can be forgotten. now, if you've recently identified something, you shouldn't have to roll again, assuming it hasn't been over a long period of time ago. it's jsut one of those things you can't make rules for, and must therefore leave to the DM's disgretions. don't forget, you can also have mind blanks at times and forget stuff, you can have a bad memory, you can have things erased magicaly or physicaly (hit to the noggin) and by other means. i don't DM, but i read up on it, and chit chat with my friends who make eccellent DMs themselves. player knowledge has always been a gray zone. for the example of the wraith thing: if your character is a cleric or somehting and hes fought them before, or he's read about them in a book or something liek that, you might know about them.
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jsut leave it to the DM :S lol before i start drawling on :P
22nd-Oct-2005 11:22 pm (UTC)
Bizarrely my players, or fellow players in other games, never squeeze past - they mow through enemies, leap over using magic stuff, and in one case blind the enemy with her own spare underpants using Mage Hand. Thus I cannot help you there.

However, with regards to knowledge skills I have an opinion: it's all down to having a good GM and reasonable players. Often when you come across the same thing again there should just be no re-roll - otherwise it doesn't make sense. However, if you do end up with people being funny, try the GM mantra: "if in doubt, make a random roll". You wouldn't believe how many petty disputes have been sorted out that way, even if it's just a simple 50/50 roll on a d%.
23rd-Oct-2005 12:28 am (UTC)
Well think about how big a 5' square is. A human size creature doesn't take up all the room. So you can move past people in that square, it's just that you can't stop in that square (because then there isn't enough room to swing a sword or dodge or anything). You can't move through an opponents square because they can block you (by stepping in front of you and stuff. Think football). Hence the overrun/bull rush abilities which let you force your way past the blocking opponent.

As far as I know, the only way "squeezing" comes up in D&D is when you have to squeeze through a tight hole (like in a dungeon) and so can't manuever as well. Either the DMG or DMG2 had rules on that.

For knowledge checks, keep in mind that just because you identified creature A as a wraith, doesn't mean that you can recognize creature B as a wraith. Not all wraiths are exactly the same. But once you know A is a wraith, you know A is a wraith.

I usually use knowledge checks as whether you know something (which is Player vs Character info. "Does my character know that this king is actually illegit?") or whether you can figure something out (which is for gaining new player/character knowledge. "Do I know if this cavern is stable?"). If you don't know it or can't figure it out quickly, then it doesn't matter. If you can a level, I'd say you could try again ("have I now learned whether that king is illegit?" "have I now learned whether the cavern is stable?"). Keep in mind that any information that could be had with a knowledge check can be had explicitly through roleplaying: "I check the history books and found that the king is illegit!" "I hired a dwarven surveyor and he said the cavern was unstable!" And so on.
23rd-Oct-2005 01:06 am (UTC)
I've never heard of squeezing past enemies either. I've heard of allied squares counting as difficult terrain, but I might be mixing D&D Minis with D&D, or I might be making that up. If you really need to get past a guy, bull rush, or tumble always works.

Knowledge checks usually supplement any info gained by roleplay in my games. Usually if it's a tidbit that hasn't come up before, like monster identification or monster weakness lore. I really like how monster-oriented they made the Knowledge skills in 3.5, gives them all variety, and makes the smart character that much more beneficial to the beat-stick.
23rd-Oct-2005 12:29 am (UTC)
One of our GMs doesn't use knowlege rolls at all; he assumes that you get a ten, and then just add your score-it makes it more difficult to know random obscure stuff, but does keep you feeling your knowlege in consistant rather than having weird gaps. I'm not sure that it would work for everyone, but I certainly think it can be a good idea.
23rd-Oct-2005 12:37 am (UTC)
First part: There is no cure for bad DMing other than having him RP under a good DM.

Second part: Just be sure to balance character knowledge and your knowledge of the game. A low-level fighter almost certainly knows what a goblin is, and a mid-level character would probably know a troll's weakness. Take into account your characters background and culture before deciding whether or not a knowledge check is required.
23rd-Oct-2005 01:56 am (UTC)
You do not have to squeeze past allies because they are not trying to stop you from moving around. You do have to squeeze past enemies, and I believe they get attacks of opportunity against you when you do.
23rd-Oct-2005 04:24 pm (UTC) - Google srd squeeze
Various answers above: highpulp is rightest.

SRD says: "You can’t move through a square occupied by an opponent, unless the opponent is helpless."

You can't end a move in the same square as someone else unless you are both tiny or smaller or grappling.

Squeezing is a term of art used to to describe occupying a space that is too small for large+ creatures, and not strictly relevant to what istril is describing: if you occupy four squares and one of the two squares you want to pass is occupied by a medium enemy, you can use squeeze rules (to avoid a quarter of you illegally moving through the enemy-occupied square) but because you are then squeezing you pay double movement and take -4 to AC (and to attacks if you end the move still squeezed).

24th-Oct-2005 01:02 am (UTC) - Re: Google srd squeeze
Well, you can move through an opponent's square with a DC 25 Tumble check (DC 35 for Tumbling at full speed).
24th-Oct-2005 07:42 am (UTC) - Re: Google srd squeeze
or overrunning or if the creature is at least three size categories bigger, or gaseous form blah blah...
24th-Oct-2005 06:21 pm (UTC) - Re: Google srd squeeze
That much I think I understand. But, my DM has ruled that two allies can voluntarily squeeze themselves to fit in the same square. He's the DM, so fine, but I'm still interested what the rules support, for my own sake if anything. To me, the rule that two allies occupying the same square is illegal supercedes this particular application of the squeezing rule... but that's just my personal judgement. What would you say?
24th-Oct-2005 07:28 pm (UTC) - Re: Google srd squeeze
Anonymous
IMHO the DM should be correct: two (friendly) medium characters should be able to end a move with one of them in the same 5' square as another, with the same -4/-4 penalties as two large creatures squeezed into 2 adjacent 2x1 rectangles. Strictly by the rules though, they can't as you can't end up in an occupied square (stated in "Ending Your Movement" and restated in Squeezing).

Unless there is some relativistic effect going on, I don't see why the rules should be different for different frames of references (other than it being fiddly to fit the miniatures). In our last game we discussed cockfighting rules and agreed it would work best if the cocks were treated as medium creatures with a whole bunch of scaled-up hit points and attacks to make it a decent fight i.e. change the frame of reference to one where humans are colossal, but this falls apart if friendly fowl are still not allowed within five feet of each other!

24th-Oct-2005 07:29 pm (UTC) - Re: Google srd squeeze
Sorry, that was me again.
24th-Oct-2005 02:22 pm (UTC)
"Squeezing" is when a creature/character is too large to properly enter through a square, for whatever reason.

For example, like they give in the PHB, a troll can't properly walk through a 5 foot corridor, because it takes up a 10 foot square. It can, however, squeeze through it at half its movement rate.

Passing through an allies square is perfectly acceptable, because as it says right in the PHB "you can always pass through a square occupied by someone who will let you pass" or something to that effect.

Moving through an opponents square can be done in a few ways:
-Tumble check (which usually only applies to creatures smaller than the creature occupying the square)
-Bullrush that the opponent chooses not to block the bullrusher
-Overrun
-Opponent is rendered immobile through: petrification, hold person/monster, unconciousness, death, etc.


Failing that, I can see no reason to move through an enemies square, and absolutely no reason why anybody would allow somebody they're fighting to walk right past them without it having been some sort of tactical maneuver on either parties account.


>.> I haven't particularly read anybody elses responses, but I am sure they are all right and I have restated many things. BUT I COMMENT ANYWAY! =)
24th-Oct-2005 06:27 pm (UTC)
Heh, yes, you're right, but when moving through is not possible, you can sqeeze past, provided you have at least enough space to do that. Check out pg 149 (I think) in the phb (3.5), I think there is a nice little diagram at the top of the page.

Oh, and just as a clarification, in case this isn't what you meant: the only way the troll can't fit through a 5 ft corridor is if it is in combat. Afterall, you can comfortably fit about 4 creatures in it's square(s) (i.e., 1 square for medium creatures, 4 squares for large creatures, etc), as long as it is not a combat situation.
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