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D&D 3E
Ok guys help me out here 
15th-Sep-2005 12:19 pm
Xander .....ME!!
Here's the....I guess it can be called challenge.

I'm joining one of the most experienced GM's d&d 3.5 campaign this weekend and I need a really heavy hitting rogue. So I'm trying to do everything I can to amp up that lovely class feature sneak attack but I have never played a rogue before so I'm kinda swamped. So if any of you can tell me what feats a 5th level evil (planning to be an assasin) character should take please help me out.

Oh and also if you have any recommendation for magical items that may be of interest to said character that would also help alot.

Thank you

::Edit:: A friend of mine was telling me about improved sneak attack and it sounds nice but he didn't know the prereq so one if anyone knows please tell and also should i go for it

thanks again

::Edited part 2:: I should probably mention that the rogue is using two daggers sorry bout the lack of info
15th-Sep-2005 05:30 pm (UTC)
Improved Feint. Single best feat for the combat-centric rogue. Requires Combat Expertise.
Perform a Feint action as a move action, not a full round. This allows you to make a Bluff check against your opponent's Sense Motive to make the feint. This makes them lose their Dodge/Dex bonus to AC, which openes them up to ye olde sneake attacke.
Rogue: Look, a hippo!
Fighter: Where?
Rogue: Take an extra 3d6, bitch!
15th-Sep-2005 05:32 pm (UTC)
Well said!
15th-Sep-2005 05:33 pm (UTC)
Consider taking two levels of fighter. This would give you two extra feats and a +2 bonus to attack. This helps your sneak attacks land.

Combat reflexes is also good, as well as expert tactician, which allows you an extra partial action (read; attack) whenever an opponent is denied their dex bonus. So feint, sneak attack, extra attack.
15th-Sep-2005 05:43 pm (UTC)
The 3.5 version of Expert Tactician isn't so good (for this) though: it gives bonuses to allies when you hit with an AoO.
15th-Sep-2005 05:48 pm (UTC)
Im sorry but im going to have to steal that line from you lmfao
16th-Sep-2005 02:09 am (UTC)
There are few things that make me "lol".... that's definitely one of them :)

15th-Sep-2005 05:47 pm (UTC)
15th-Sep-2005 05:49 pm (UTC)
yeah sorry for the typo I was in a bit of a hurry
15th-Sep-2005 06:00 pm (UTC)
np, it's just a pet peeve ;)

I'd give you some advice but I haven't played a rogue in a looooooooooooong time ;)
15th-Sep-2005 05:58 pm (UTC)
Rogue 5:

From Rogue:
Sneak attack 2d6
Uncanny Dodge

Feats (5 - Human, Levels 1, 3)
(h) Combat Reflexes
(1) Improved Fient
(3) Two Weapon Fighting (more attacks)
or (3) Weapon Focus(chosen)
or a bunch of other things.

Maxed Tumble (+4 dex, +8 skill)
Maxed Bluff (+3 Cha, +8 skill)
High Hide and Move Silently.

Some minor magic item that boosts Bluff (a +5 skill item may be appropriate at this level -- I don't recall -- Call it a mask of lies or something).

Masterwork weapon (or two, if TWF -- make sure one is light)
Masterwork (or better, Mithril) Chain Shirt.
A few potions of Invisiblity.

and the key:
a bunch of level 2 or 3 assistants with a die or two of sneak attack. Since they're all low level, and only get one attack and aren't severely penalized by moving around. Have the henchlings move so that they can maintain flanking.

The design is to snipe from ambush. sneak off. Use invis potions to maintain secrecy. Relocate and repeat. When down to 2 potions, use one to sneak into combat, and hit hard. stand a few rounds, using the minions to maintain flanking. If you get in trouble, quaff the last potion and run.
15th-Sep-2005 06:13 pm (UTC) - From the SRD
Improved Sneak Attack [Epic] Prerequisite: Sneak attack +8d6. Benefit: Add +1d6
to your sneak attack damage. Special: This feat may be taken multiple times.
16th-Sep-2005 12:34 am (UTC) - Re: From the SRD
there's another improved sneak attack.
aaah..found it

from AEG Feats:
Improved Sneak Attack
Prereqs: base attack +2, ability to sneak attack.
Benefit: Your bonus damage for sneak attack raies by one die type. If your sneak attack damage is d4s, it is now d6s, d6s to d8s, and so on.
16th-Sep-2005 12:34 am (UTC) - Re: From the SRD
raises* sorry.
16th-Sep-2005 08:17 am (UTC) - Re: From the SRD
Correct me if I'm wrong, (and no offense meant, I'm getting brusque in my replies in this topic) but under the OGL anyone can pump up an existing core Feat in the hope of transferring wood pulp from Amazon to Munchkin: the one thing they can't do is claim it is Dungeons And Dragons.
16th-Sep-2005 01:16 pm (UTC) - Re: From the SRD
... I'm not following you. The feat isn't altering a "core" feat, it is a completely seperate feat from a third party book for use in D&D or any D20 system game.

As always, allowing the book, or even the feat itself would be completely up to the GM.
16th-Sep-2005 04:18 pm (UTC) - "Those fish aren't for eating, they are for selling!".
All of this is true.

But even Monte Cook can only get away with "An alternative player's handbook" and give a nod and a wink to it being compatible with D+D. I can print a Feat called Improved Sneak Attack on my web site that does double damage to Aberrations and there's nothing Wizards of The Coast legal department can do about it if I follow certain rules (like not mentioning Beholders!), but it would have zero credibility.

So the AEG Feat is as good a starting point as any for making up your own Feat but being in a book means nothing more than making it up yourself. Ddistinctly less in this case as it is more powerful (on an average roll) than an existing 3.5E SRD Epic feat to anyone with more then 3 sneak attack dice, and its name implies it was written by someone who had not read the SRD.
16th-Sep-2005 04:57 pm (UTC) - Re: "Those fish aren't for eating, they are for selling!".
Considering how old the AEG Feats book is (relatively), as well as the book the feat originated from, they may have read the SRD...

I can't recall, was the Epic Level Handbook part of the 3.0 SRD?
15th-Sep-2005 06:24 pm (UTC)
Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse (short sword), Combat Expertise.

Two masterwork shortswords, with a good chance of finding tons of magical short swords in your adventuring. Consider studded leather for your armor - MW, and thus all magical studded leather, won't have a check penalty to all your Rogue skills.

If you're an elf, you'll gain the added advantage of being proficient with a whole host of other weapons, some of which are rather common. The best of these is the longbow. Humans get the added feat though, which is always nice.

Either way, a Rogue is the most underestimated damage dealing machine in the game. Once you're level 9, and have Improved Two Weapon Fighting, you'll have 4 attacks a round, each doing 6d6 (assuming you have a competent party who will provide you flanking opportunities) plus strength/magic/flaming bonuses on each.

One last bit...pick your battles. You won't do well charging some guy in +5 full plate of ignore all damage from PCs, but if you can target low to mid AC opponents regularly, you'll more than pull your weight in combat, in addition to your other responsibilities. You may also want to consider ignoring Assassin. I find pure Rogues make better hitmen than Assassins. And don't be afraid to run away. Put some ranks in tumble and it's synergy skills, and be prepared to make a tumble check and run away. This can get you out of a lot of sticky situations, especially because you'll be in light armor, and a lot of the big mean hurty guys will most likely be in medium/heavy.
15th-Sep-2005 06:35 pm (UTC) - FYI-
Weapon Finesse is not weapon-specific in 3.5e.
15th-Sep-2005 06:37 pm (UTC) - Re: FYI-
Beat me to it ;)
15th-Sep-2005 08:51 pm (UTC)
I second the suggestion to use short swords instead of daggers if you're going with a two-weapon character. The only reason I design a rogue to use daggers is for the Invisible Blade PrC (free Improved Feint, which has also been pointed out). 1d6 dmg instead of 1d4 really will help, especially at low levels. Plus it means you don't need a different kind of die when you sneak attack ;)

So for feats, get Two Weapon Fighting, Combat Expertise, and Improved Feint. I like getting Skill Focus (bluff), because it means you're much more likely to be able to feint. If you are insistant on using daggers, I think Quick Draw and Deft Strike (from Complete Adventurer) are fun, as it gives you a free sneak attack every battle.

I'm not sure how nixed this gets at higher levels, but that -2 to hit with two weapons can really be a bother a low levels, especially with the rogue's BAB. 3e sneak attack doesn't have any kind of limitation on weapon size; technically you can backstab with a ballista. So maybe consider using a single big weapon and some improvements on that (like weapon focus, improved crit, and so on). I'm not sure, but a two-handed sneak attack could be fun. You can design a rogue who is more strength-based than dex-based, but I'm not sure how effective it may be. Just food for thought, especially if you'd like to play a character who's a little atypical.
15th-Sep-2005 09:38 pm (UTC)
technically you can backstab with a ballista.

Guard: Doo do doo...
Rogue: *sneak sneak*
Guard: Durrr
Guard: *hrk*

That just cracks me up for some reason.
15th-Sep-2005 10:42 pm (UTC)
Discworld, anyone?

Also, make a point never to fight Undead, Constructs, Oozes, Elementals, or high-level Druids. Because none of this sneak-attack crap works on them.
16th-Sep-2005 02:10 am (UTC)

I can't recall the name of the spell off of the top of my head, but there's some kinda divine spell that allows you to transfer sneak attack damage to undead. I believe it may be in "Complete Divine".

16th-Sep-2005 04:04 am (UTC)
the spell would be gravestrike
16th-Sep-2005 08:02 am (UTC)
So now were plopping cleric levels into his build too?
16th-Sep-2005 10:47 am (UTC)
Not really. I think it's available as a weapon enchantment... I think. If not then you can always buy scrolls/potions and such and make a roll to use the scroll without botching it.

16th-Sep-2005 01:22 pm (UTC)
There are also feats. Don't ask me to remember them, I'd have to dig up an old character sheets and cross reference his feats with about a hundred books. But I could sneak attack on constructs, although the extra damage wasn't as much as normal.
16th-Sep-2005 12:38 am (UTC)
I had a rogue I loved. Halfling master thrower, threw blades. improved ranged sneak attack, levels in master thrower, was going to go into invisible blade, and was trying to convince the dm of finding a way to make a throwing dagger version of the arcane archer..
archery feats are dirty, and depending on dm rule, they may or may not apply to thrown weapons.
16th-Sep-2005 02:11 am (UTC)
As a general rule of thumb.. everything you fight in D&D will be evil of some type. Go ahead and get yourself a "Holy" enchantment on your daggers :p

16th-Sep-2005 08:05 am (UTC)
Scratch that idea, Holy Weapons will drop a negative level on any evil character trying to wield them.

And he's got a fine chance of running into Good or Neutral enemies as an evil character.
16th-Sep-2005 10:47 am (UTC)
Touche'. I forgot he's playing an assasin. I'm use to giving that advice to the party's default chaotic good basher.

16th-Sep-2005 03:24 am (UTC)
Two Weapon Fighting is a useful way to exponentially increase the Sneak Attack damage you'll do.

Improved Initiative is a must for all rogues.

Quick Draw is very useful, particularly if you're using Two Weapon Fighting. It is also a prerequisite for Flick of the Wrist, which lets you catch an opponent flat-footed when you quick draw, once per combat. However, I suspect that Improved Feint is more useful ... but don't bother with Improved Feint AND Two Weapon Fighting. You only get one attack when you Improved Feint, so why bother taking the other Feat? Are you about using allies to flank the bad guys and cut them to ribbons, or are you about sneaking in and eliminating the enemy solo?
16th-Sep-2005 04:04 am (UTC)
im not sure off the top of my head the gp cost but a dagger of deadly percision will bulk you up a bit,,,a
16th-Sep-2005 04:10 am (UTC)
rouges have other kick ass skills then snerak attack high charisma ,intimadate ,diplomacy and bluff can be really usefull its nice to be able to feint,bully your way into or out of a situation,and when in desparate need play possum
17th-Sep-2005 01:27 am (UTC)
Are you guys kidding? Short swords? Switch that to rapiers, for sure. Why in the hell would you ever want to deal d6 damage on an attack with a 10% chance of a critical hit when you can deal d6 damage on an attack with a 15% chance?

Come to that, either slap some keen on the sucker or get yourself a scabbard of keen edges. Granted the sneak attack damage won't double, but still- I'd much rather have a three in ten chance of scoring a critical than a one in ten.
17th-Sep-2005 04:20 am (UTC)
Because a short sword is considered a light weapon for two-handed fighting, whereas a rapier is not.

So a rapier and a short sword would work, but if you use two short swords a single Weapon Focus would be twice as helpful. Not to mention two slashing weapons is cooler than a piercing and a slashing weapon.
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