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D&D 3E
Unfair Situation? 
17th-Mar-2005 02:57 am
Serious?
I just started playing in a new campaign. In the party there is a lawful good character, two neutral goods, and one chaotic good. The chaotic good character has all of these "brilliant" ideas in which all of the melee users (a.k.a. not her- she's a sorceress) go off to kill powerful creatures and once one or more of them are dead, she loots the room and nicely enough, the bodies of the other characters. Every chance she gets, she loots the rooms and lies about what she finds. She rarely shares but however, does some nice things to NPCs but otherwise is selfish as the day is long. I, along with another player, have called her on this and she says she's playing her alignment perfectly. Is this true?

Also, the DM is condoning this and even lets her keep special items everyone else doesn't even get to know about. Myself and the other players have minimal supplies (an average of oh, 50 gold?) and there has been an allusion that she's taken about 200 gold without our knowledge. I'm just wondering, is this fair? The DM doesn't seem to agree that her alignment conflicts with these behaviors. If this situation is unfair and the DM agrees, how should I handle it? This is maybe the 6th time I've ever played D&D. I don't want to seem confrontational or disagreeable but from the write-ups of chaotic and good... being this greedy and selfish doesn't seem right...

I'd appreciate the help.
-Di
Comments 
17th-Mar-2005 09:45 am (UTC)
Here's the thing asbout alignment. It shouldn't dictate character...in fact character should dictate alignment. Honestly those actions seemt o be more along the lines of chaotic neutral or neutral evil. As a DM I wouldn't force the character to change, but either make her role-playing feeling guilty, or if she doesn't....change her alignment accordingly.

Evil essentially is self-fishness. Self over others, where good = others over self. (barring extraordinary circumstances). Its a guideline, not a character concept or even modes iof actions. I've seen neutral evil played as a school yard bully, and a psycotic druid eco-terrorist. True neutral can be the good guy forced to do evil things, or the aloof uncaring person.

Chotic good is more like the vigilante (like Punisher), or the freedom fighter. chotic just means that they don't like rules, or that they the feel contrained by rules etc. That perhaps organization is not they key, but freedom and individual thought. etc. but they are inherently good....not selffish...so yeah...wrong alignment for actions described. I agree with ya!
17th-Mar-2005 09:48 am (UTC)
PCs stealign from PCs is the hardest thing to handle IC and OOC - sure you can accidently kill one with a fireball, but just dont steal their kit. I've seen this get out of hand. From what you describe, it doesnt sound like the sorceress is being particularly GOOD in her actions - particularly if this is a habitual thing she is doing. Self-serving and selfish are EVIL by DnD3e if played all the time - she's screwing over her companions for her own good. Have someone Detect evil and ask the DM what they see.

The player might argue that this is IC for a rogue/theif - but good shouldnt screw over comapnions. Personally, I could live with it if it was just skimming off some of the treasure for herself. Depends on the maturity of the group.

If the DM isnt clamping down on it or her actions, then just pass a note to him saying you are poisoning all of your potions... then let her steal away
17th-Mar-2005 09:54 am (UTC)
You know, if you really think about it, she's probably not playing her alignment that well. Based on the D&D alignment blurb, she could very well be a good character who is unfortunately selfish. But based on how you describe things, I picture her as the chaotic/neutral evil rogue that sits at the back of the party to 'protect us from a rear attack' while everyone else charges into battle.

I hope you got my point out of that.
17th-Mar-2005 10:33 am (UTC)
You could have just said it plainly without doing it all ARGish :P
17th-Mar-2005 10:21 am (UTC)
If the DM condones it, there's not a whole lot you can do, just try and talk with her out o character and let her know it's pissing you off. Alignment shouldn't be a justification for actions.
17th-Mar-2005 10:22 am (UTC)
Sorry this comment isn't related to your post, but I must say, you're icon is absolutely hilarious :)
17th-Mar-2005 02:21 pm (UTC) - Re:
I just glazed over it thinking, "Great, another HP icon. Freaking wee." Your comment made me pay attention to it, and I'm now crying from laughter.
17th-Mar-2005 10:32 am (UTC)
That's more or less an evil alignment, whether lawful or chaotic, she's definately evil.

I think you should suggest to the DM that her alignment changes, or she is penalized for playing her alignment incorrectly.
17th-Mar-2005 12:43 pm (UTC)
That is the reason I allow PVP
17th-Mar-2005 02:51 pm (UTC)
As has been discussed many times before, alignment is problematic. But I think the bigger problem seems to be your DM showing favoritism. I would bring that up with him; if he really is helping one player and screwing the rest, you have bigger problems than what two letters are written under "alignment" on your character sheet.

But I will mention that this sounds almost verbatim like the description of a NE character from the 2e DMG.
17th-Mar-2005 03:04 pm (UTC)
Good roleplayer: one who can find a good reason for sticking around with the team and makes for good party cohesion.

Bad roleplayer: One who sees Neutral to mean "i don't care" or chaotic to mean "sociopath".

THis person is being a jerk. if your characters are LG and seee someone blatantly stealing and then LYING about it, that's not exactly and evil act, but damn if it's not nice. Call her on it in game. LG can justifiably be a huge jerk when the time is right, and this is the right time.

Also, if she's good, she'd share. It's one thing to take the best loot for yourself, but a good wouldn't take all of it.
17th-Mar-2005 03:37 pm (UTC)
Yeah, kinda looks Chaotic Neutral to me. Chaotic good I had always compared to Robin Hood.

But think about it this way, I'm sure your characters are starting to get suspicious of this other person when they find that everythings been ravaged and there's slim pickings for loot. (She's looting *as* you're fighting? o.0 Good grief.) Good or bad, if I was one of those characters I probably wouldn't stick around that person too long because I would wonder what their motives are/were. ^.~
17th-Mar-2005 05:28 pm (UTC)
It's more important to look at her motivation than her behavoir. If she is taking extra gold because she is supporting an orphanage and other characters might not see the importance of this to her, then her actions are indeed chaotic good.

If she seeks material wealth for selfish reasons, she is at best chaotic neutral.
17th-Mar-2005 06:07 pm (UTC)
Force an Alignment change to Selfish Evil and giggle when the Paladin casts Detect Evil.

*giggles as the paldin kicks her arse.*
17th-Mar-2005 06:21 pm (UTC)
This, to me, seems less a problem about alignment and more a problem about expectations of party cohesion. If the player's choice of character action makes the game less fun for you -- even if it's perfectly in character -- that's a problem. Talk to the player privately or as a group and come to some kind of agreement about what kind of game you want to play. If player-vs-player competition is not fun for most of your group, you probably ought to have a metagame rule that explains what is appropriate. Only the group as a whole can make such a "social contract" rule; it really has to come from consensus, not from the authority of the game master.
17th-Mar-2005 06:26 pm (UTC) - Role-Play Consequences
I recommend that your characters enter an adventuring compact. Give your terms and shares. Deal with division of magic items. Deal with what happens to equipment on death. Deal with resurrection issues and such. If your sorcerous friend violates the rules of division, she becomes a thief. When the thief is caught punish her severely under your compact. It is not evil to punish a thief, especially if the law (compact) gives you authority and is agreed upon by the thief. Set your punishment for whatever you all can agree on: reimbursement, reimbursement plus a fine, forfeit all goods, banishment from the group, cut off hand, or death.

Just bringing the subject up should give the offending player and the dm a clue as to the extent of the dissatisfaction.
17th-Mar-2005 07:35 pm (UTC)
1) Taking things from dead bodies isn't stealing, it's looting.
2) Not sharing doesn't fall under the category of evil, it falls under the category of being a jerk. There are more than enough good-hearted jerks in the world.
3) Sending others to do all the work while you stay back and let them die is not only jerk-like, it blurs the line between good and evil, because you're potentially letting your friends die.
4) Roleplay it. If you're fed up with her hanging back and taking everything for all the work that you've done: don't do any work. Stand behind her, let HER die, then kill the bad-guys, take their stuff, her stuff, and then, if you're feeling generous, get her Raised.


Being Chaotic Good doesn't mean that you remove yourself from combat, even if you're a spellcasting character. Letting your friends die is neutral -at best-, and combined with the greed (which isn't necessarily evil) it pushes it just a little bit too far.

This PC gets a large "Does not play well with others" stamp on the top of her character sheet, and fails Dungeogarten™.
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