?

Log in

No account? Create an account
D&D 3E
I need a god 
17th-Dec-2004 12:24 pm
fox
1. I'm gonna be running a campaign where humans and dwarves have only one diety they worship. What I'm looking for is a god to fill this role. I would not be opposed to using only one god from a pantheon, perhaps one who was cross pantheon into this world such as Tyr, who is norse as well as Faerunian.

2. Also, I'm running an Undeadless campaign, so I would like to give my clerics some ability to counter their inability to turn undead. I'm not even sure there will be demons, so that's out to. perhaps a weaker ability to breifly "turn" anyone of opposite alignment? That however seems too powerful...

3. There are going to be two types of clerics in the game, Cleric(True) and Cleric (charletan). True clerics will be like the normal ad&d cleric. Charleton clerics ont he other hand will use cleric spells, but their magic will be arcane, not divine. They will have the same spell list as a cleric, but they will essentially be "healing wizards'. They will also need an ability to balance out their lack of ability to turn undead, but it should be nothing relating to what clerics get. Any ideas for alternative powers?

Crossposted to d20games
Comments 
17th-Dec-2004 05:32 pm (UTC)
2: let them turn monster types. Most domains have that ability set to it, but whateva.

I like the stun(alignment). It's not too powerful, as long as the Will save isn't too crazy. (PS: don't let them stun Neutral. :D )


3: hmm. tricky. they can burn spells for a cure, right? Maybe let them burn a spell for (effect)?

Give them use magic device? Let them make pies? Remove the weapon restrictions?

hmm. The class is, otherwise, identical to plain'ole!Clerics, right?
17th-Dec-2004 05:44 pm (UTC)
Yes, they're reproducing religious magic, but their care for people outweighs their piety. This won't be character knowledge however. Characters will just know they are different. As a spellcaster they'll already be able to use magic device, craft is a class skill for craft:piemaking: and weapon restrictions wouldn't make sense with their clerical training. You are on the other track however.
17th-Dec-2004 05:49 pm (UTC)
I totally forgot about the whole skill thing.

hm.

I have no idea then.
18th-Dec-2004 01:27 pm (UTC)
Bakesale power!
17th-Dec-2004 05:56 pm (UTC)
You could substitute Turn Undead for Turn Outsider, like in Unearthed Arcana.

Have you thought about making up a god? Unless the characters fight him, you don't need actual stats for him. Just make some domains/portfolio, etc. for him.

The term charlatan is derogatory to me, and unless you want that for the "healing wizards" you might want to change it. It reminds me a little of Dragonlance with the War of the Lance books. At least I think it was them.
17th-Dec-2004 06:00 pm (UTC)
It is actually supposed to be derogatory. Slightly less hostile than "heretic".

I have considered making up a god, but I've been so embroiled in other thing. When I think of AD&D, I always think of it from a Planescape point of view. I think where the plain fits in, where the god fits in, where else they might be.
17th-Dec-2004 06:11 pm (UTC)
the healing wizard charlatans can have familiars. that's enough of a special ability imho and they don't need to make up for not being able to turn undead. i say let clerics cast all spells spontaneously like sorcerers, don't make them memorize spells. that would balance no turning for me.

but your healing wizards: wizards have better spells than clerics. that's what balances them in a standard game. a wizard with the cleric spell list is just a cleric that can have a familiar, with fewer hit points, no armor, can't burn spells for healing spells, and has no domain powers. i would worry about beefing up the charlatans more than the clerics.

if the charlatans are hated, maybe give them some power over "true" clerics. let them manipulate magic in general, bonus on counterspells vs clerics, maybe they can sap magic from clerics and gain spells per day or something. a special attack or spell only they have access too that will let them take the daily alotment of spells form a cleric for themselves. or something. gives them a power and a reason to be feared.
17th-Dec-2004 06:28 pm (UTC)
Hmm..these are all interesting ideas. I like the spontaneous casting part, at least for the regular clerics. It makes more sense with the campaign anyway to have a cleric use a god's power as they need it.

Charletons. These are not neccessarily to be feared, for sometimes they work hand in hand with regular clerics. Though they get their spells from an arcane source, they cast the same spells, and care for people even more than regular clerics sometimes.

You are 100% right that I need to make them special somehow. Is there a school of wizardry that I could include with their choices, without compromising a wizard's uniqueness? Cleric/alterers? Illusion? evocation?
17th-Dec-2004 06:36 pm (UTC)
i think you'd be better off stating from scratch. look up the rules for making a new class and go from there. use the wizard as a starting point if you want. give them cleric spells and progression, maybe a d6 for hp, couple special abilities and better weapons than standard wizards and see how they stack up.
17th-Dec-2004 06:44 pm (UTC)
How does this balance out...

Since these are supposed to be more worldly clerics, what if they have a few select skills from the rogue list, and more skill points per level, perhaps say hide/ms, appraise, gather info, use rope, and survival maybe, and 6 skill points per level. This should make up for the lack of undead turning, and inability to spontaniously cast. I then give them access to one wizard school and bam...so you would have

Cleric(True)
Just like a regular cleric, except they cast spells spontainously.

Cleric(Charleton)
LIke a cleric, only their spells are arcane, They have access to the illusion school, they must memorize their spells, have 6 skill points per level and the skills above as class skills
17th-Dec-2004 06:50 pm (UTC)
sounds ok to me but i'm no rules lawyer so i really couldn't say if its balanced. i would still check the rules for making a new class.
17th-Dec-2004 07:02 pm (UTC)
My gf actually made me a hat that says "Rules Lawyer" on the front... heh It's pretty funny. I love wearing it to new games.
17th-Dec-2004 07:03 pm (UTC)
that's funny :P
17th-Dec-2004 07:04 pm (UTC)
we're always looking stuff up in my games because half of us have never played and the other half are used to older rules sets. they always ask me "you're the DM, aren't you supposed to know this stuff?"
17th-Dec-2004 07:09 pm (UTC)
Yeah, because as dm I took the time to memorize how much weight a charcter with a 26 strength can lift over their head, or the challenge rating for a fire filled 30' pit trap, or the land speed of a great wyrm gold dragon, or how much damage a bar stood does, or the save dc for wyvern venom...etc. etc.
17th-Dec-2004 07:12 pm (UTC)
the dm's screen is more of a pain then a help too, because i don't know where on it any of the tables i need are, and when i find it, invariably what i'm looking fro was left off that table...
17th-Dec-2004 09:32 pm (UTC)
I really like the Charleton idea. I think your rules are pretty balanced. I like having more class skills. 2 extra skill points could add up, but really by the time you are a higher level you have enough toys to boost skills and stats.

When you say they have access to a school, do you mean the wizard's spell list for that school? You could really allow most schools if you think about them. The problem there is that some schools are more powerful than others (see specialist wizard rules).

Do Charletons get familiars? I know they aren't true wizards, but I thought I'd ask. I would say not.

Are Charletons subject to arcane spell failure? I'm unsure how I feel about that one. I can see it going either way. I saw the post about removing weapon restrictions and I agree.

You mentioned using magical devices as an ability, but can they use divine magic items? I wouldn't think so. But they would have the benefit of making arcane versions of divine spells into items (because of their spell list). What about giving them the Use Magic Device skill and only allowing them to "emulate Cleric"?

As an aside, if a Charleton makes a wand of Cure Moderate Wounds, can a regular wizard use it? =)
17th-Dec-2004 10:06 pm (UTC)
please see my post below.... I took some of these, but ditched others for balance sake...

to answer your questions, I modified the arcane spell failure chances to limit their armor, but allow light.

I actually am unsure about the use of magical items. Please read the description below and make some suggestions....
17th-Dec-2004 06:23 pm (UTC)
So other than the technicality that the spells are cast as "arcane," is there any (non-roleplaying) difference between the two clerics? If not, why make a separate class?
17th-Dec-2004 06:29 pm (UTC)
There is a differenc that the spells are arcane not divine, yes. The class skills will be slightly different also, as well as saves (maybe). The cleric class will get one thing since they cannot turn undead, Charletons will get something else entirely.
17th-Dec-2004 07:43 pm (UTC)
ok...lets clarify some things please.

Are you playing AD&D (god forbid), or D&D3.5? What do you mean by undeadless? Do you mean undead? Or deathless (introduced in the Book of Exalted Deeds and the Eberron Campaign Setting). Or do you even mean a game with NO undead in it.

If you're playing AD&D, i'm sorry but I cant help you. I dont know how anyone could. *shudder*.

If you're playing D&D3e (3.5, etc) then I'd recommend cracking open Complete Divine (or even the miniatures handbook) for an Alternate "Cleric" class. For a "Cleric" with alternate powers they are a pretty good with the healing I say try the Favored Soul. They arent "arcane" casters that heal, but it should be the flavor you're looking for.

The rub is, that wizards dont heal. The closest you'll get is a necromancer and they cant do much. There is also the presitge class called an "ur-preist" I forget if he's from the Book of Vile Darkness, Complete Divine, or Unearthed Arcana. He basically steals spells from gods and despises them (the closest you can come to a charlitan)

You can also approach things from the Eberron Point of view. A cleric need not get spells from a god, but from an ideal. Similar to Paladins in standard 3e. His power of faith is what grants him spells, even if its anti deity.

If you're runnning a game with no undead, then simply replace turn undead with an extra 2 domains, a domain and a free feat, or something similar.

For example, instead of Domains you can give this "arcane" cleric Scribe Scroll at 1st level and Brew Potion at 3rd. Voila, you have a cleric who can write scrolls and brew potions. Something most clerics dont do without spending a feat and something thats typcially the domain of wizards.

I hope some of this has helped. I hope to god you're playing 3e and not AD&D.

17th-Dec-2004 09:37 pm (UTC)
"Are you playing AD&D (god forbid), or D&D3.5?"

First of all, we play what's called "the best of both worlds" AD&D. We take rules from either 3.0 or 3.5, whichever benefits the player more.

"What do you mean by undeadless? Do you mean undead? Or deathless (introduced in the Book of Exalted Deeds and the Eberron Campaign Setting). Or do you even mean a game with NO undead in it."

There are no undead or deathless in there. Since I'm only starting the game with availability of up to 4th level spells, no res either. If you're dead, you're dead.

"If you're playing D&D3e (3.5, etc) then I'd recommend cracking open Complete Divine (or even the miniatures handbook) for an Alternate "Cleric" class. For a "Cleric" with alternate powers they are a pretty good with the healing I say try the Favored Soul. They arent "arcane" casters that heal, but it should be the flavor you're looking for.

The rub is, that wizards dont heal. The closest you'll get is a necromancer and they cant do much. There is also the presitge class called an "ur-preist" I forget if he's from the Book of Vile Darkness, Complete Divine, or Unearthed Arcana. He basically steals spells from gods and despises them (the closest you can come to a charlitan)"

I actually have complete divine. The idea is to use cleric as the base class, but modify it. Their spell list will be identical to the clerics, but they cast them AS divine spells. So a wizard watching a Charleton cast cure light wounds would understand it better than a true cleric. It is designed to emulate a person's desire to humanize or de-religion gods, priests and their powers. But that is in the background....

"You can also approach things from the Eberron Point of view. A cleric need not get spells from a god, but from an ideal. Similar to Paladins in standard 3e. His power of faith is what grants him spells, even if its anti deity."

Nope. Totally different. The idea is the total removal of the divine. Really, calling one class of spells divine and one arcane is merely semantics. The only thing it really affects is casting in armor, which they will not be able to do.

"If you're runnning a game with no undead, then simply replace turn undead with an extra 2 domains, a domain and a free feat, or something similar.

For example, instead of Domains you can give this "arcane" cleric Scribe Scroll at 1st level and Brew Potion at 3rd. Voila, you have a cleric who can write scrolls and brew potions. Something most clerics dont do without spending a feat and something thats typcially the domain of wizards."

This is a simplistic solution. To do something like this does not make the class special. However, the extra domain part of it might be good if I applied it to wizard schools.. See my next post for my proposition...

17th-Dec-2004 10:03 pm (UTC)
Proposition version 1.0

Cleric(True)
This class is similar to the standard cleric from the PHB. The only difference is the True cleric cannot turn undead, and Does not need to memorize which spells to cast. This reflects the characters dependance on divine favor to do what is needed at the time. In this world "oh, I would neutralize your poison, but I forgot to arrange with my god to let me do that this morning" doesn't fly. A cleric is expected to pull whatever miracle they need out of their hat in any given situation. Because of this, the cleric does not gain access to any domains or domain powers.

Cleric (Charleton)
The Charleton cleric emulates a true clerics abilities without the ability to channel divine might. A Charleton gains bonus spells based on Intelligence, and though his spells are chosen from the Cleric spell list, those spells are cast as if they were arcane spells. The Charleton does not get access to any domains. Since these spells are easier to cast than most wizard spells, the character gains no arcane spell failure chance for wearing light armor. Medium or heavy armor still incur an arcane spell failure chance as listed in the phb. A Charleton's spells must be memorized each morning. The Charleton also has access to the Enchantment school from the wizard/sorceror spell list.

Hp, attack bonus, saves: As cleric

class skills: A charleton may take the following skills as class skills; Bluff, concentration, craft, diplomacy, gather information, heal, listen, knowledge(arcana, nature), perform, profession, scry, and spellcraft. (notice knowledge religion is cross class... They can still learn about religion, but it is as hard for them as for any other person).
Skill points at first level: (4 + int modifier)X4
Skill points at every other level: 4 + int modifier

Weapon profficiencies: Charleton's are profficient with all simple weapons. Additionally, the Charleton is profficient with one of the following weapons: hammer(light), Flail(light), warhammer, or flail(heavy). The Charleton is profficient with all light armors.


So, lets examine some balance issues...
Since the cleric can spontaniously cast a good amount of spells(+1), they have a good deal of ability to help a party. Without domains however, they lose a little power(-1). The cleric can cast these spells while wearing heavy armor, and carrying a shield(+1). They can no longer turn undead.(-1). result=0

The Charleton cleric has more skills(+1) (representing their increased worldliness), but little specific understanding of dogma (no knowledge religion)(-1/2). The Charleton can cast spells while wearing light armor(+1/2). The Charleton must pick which spells to memorize(-1), but gains access to enchantment spells(+1). They can no longer turn undead (-1), but they have expanded weapon choices (+1) Result=0

The wizard can cast a decent number of spells, and has a good variety in his repetoire.(+1). The wizard cannot wear armor.(-1). THe wizard has a familiar to help him(+1), but less hit points than a cleric (-1). The wizard also gets free feats every couple of levels.(+1). The wizard can only use a small selection of weapons(-1). result=0

This looks balanced to me.. please comment!
18th-Dec-2004 01:00 am (UTC)
Your math is totally messed up.

How is spontaneous casting ability only "+1"? Casting stuff spontaneously is HUGE!! Look at the comparison of Sorcerers to Wizards. In order to make the Wizards balance with the spontaneous spell-caster, they get bonus feats and a much faster spell progression. Do your Charleton's have a "spells-known" list? Or can they spontaneously cast any spell from the cleric's list?? That's an insane ability that definately outbalances other stuff.

As someone else said, you give them a "+1" for having the same ability as a normal cleric.

How is having many more skills and more skill points per level worth only twice as much as not having a single knowledge skill? no knowlegde should be like a "-1/12" or something tiny, if it mattered at all.

It's stuff like that which doesn't balance at all, at least in my world. But if it works in your campaign, then go for it.

17th-Dec-2004 10:37 pm (UTC)
Good stuff! Nice summary and comparisons. I do have a few comments.

Cleric balance: You count casting in armor/shield as a +1 when that is in the original/unaltered cleric. If you remove that, you're at net -1 for removing domains and turning undead. I understand that casting in armor is a plus (in general). I think that your cleric is balanced in *your* campaign/setting, but some might consider it so in a general sense (because you would have regular clerics and your brand of cleric). Debatable and I won't belabor it. =) I'd call it done, but keep it in mind if you want to release this as a alternative for normal campaigns. (hope that made sense)

Charleton and Wizard balance: Good. I think your "math" is appropriate. I really like the casting in light armor only and weapon list changes.

Charleton: I went and looked at Enchantment spells, moreso on levels 1-4. If you take "charleton" (lower case) in its definition, then Enchantment might be appropriate, or maybe certain Illusion. If you take them in the "benefactor" role you defined in your setting, I think something like Abjuration might be more appropriate. What about giving Charletons a single (selectable) domain, without the special abilities?

Charletons and magic devices: I'm not sure either. I'll have to think about it. Having (limited) Use Magic Device can be reasoned either way. They shouldn't have it because they are not able to channel the energy. They should have it because they understand the mechanics of magic (and at some level "magic is magic").

The same goes with a Charleton creating an arcane item with a spell on the Charleton/Cleric list and another Wizard trying to use the item. It can go either way. Maybe a Wizard using a Charleton item has a DC, almost as if they automatically get Use Magic Device but only for use with such items. Maybe ranks=wizard level, since the higher level folks would have a better understanding of magic. Or say "no" because it is too complicated. =)
17th-Dec-2004 11:15 pm (UTC)
Charleton item

A magical item constructed by a charleton can be used by any other charleton freely. A wizard or cleric must make a d20 role to use this item, adding their intelligence(wizard) or wisdom(cleric) modifier. The dc is 20 minus the highest level of spell they can cast. (A 12th level wizard would subtract 6 from this, so had to roll a 14(minus intelligence bonus) or higher on a d20. Any item made by a Charleton costs 10% more in gp value, but not xp.

as for spell school, I was looking at abjuration, but a cleric ALREADY has a good amount of abjuring magic (shield of faith, shield of law, protection from evil, circle against evil, etc.). The charleton has armor resrictions a cleric does not have. Giving them abjuration would almost negate this penalty. Enchantment was one wizards hardly ever use, and there aren't very many spells included. The only other one that crossed my mind was illusion, but that included invisibility which was not what I was going for.

I looked through the domains, and there wasn't a single one I would like to give them access too. All of them seemed too flashy. With enchantment, at least they have a subtle monster protection/charm. I kind of envision it as far as human opponents are concerned like this....

The Charleton is bent over his unconcious comrade, preparing to administer healing. A large orc approaches, sword drawn and looking angry. The charleton says with force "Get away from us!". The orc turns and walks off. The chaleton heals his comrade enough that he wakes up. Three more orcs charge at the pair. "Slumber!" the Charleton says and all three orcs fall over, dead asleep. The first orc, having overcome the suggestion charges back. "Hold beast!" the Charleton says, and the orc stops in place. He then heals his companion, who stands ready to fight. As the orcs awaken, the Charleton pulls out his warhammer and prepares to stand beside his warrior companion.
17th-Dec-2004 11:36 pm (UTC)
For what it's worth, it's already been covered in the core rules.

Wands, staves and scrolls can only be used if the given spell is on the users' spell list (barring UMD) and, in the case of scrolls, is of the right type (arcane vs. divine). It doesn't matter if Bards cast arcane spells -- Wizards and Sorcerers cannot use scrolls that bear Bardic Cure Light Wounds spells.
18th-Dec-2004 12:04 am (UTC)
Party pooper! ;)

Thanks for remembering that and pointing it out. No sense in reinventing the wheel.

Although foxsable, I still like your rules on using items. I'm always looking for house rules to tinker with. And your narrative for the enchantment school is convincing. You could make your own "domain" special to Charlatans, but it probably isn't needed.

Speaking of charlatans.. I realize that I and others have been misspelling it. Think "all A's"... charlatan. =)
18th-Dec-2004 12:49 am (UTC) - thank you!
Thank you everyone for all the help getting my creative juices flowing today. I decided to go with what I had, finally.

I made it a small pantheon....

Demeter and Sif are the goddesses of humans and dwarves
the "all-father" is the god of Charlatans.
Corellan Lothorien (sp?) is the elven god

Demi-humans will have their own gods.
18th-Dec-2004 04:57 pm (UTC)
If your looking for a god thats a hbit pseudo christian in outlook, go have a look at the new Races of Destiny manual.

Beyond that. If your looking for some interesting alternatives to turn, then give your cleric smite, or turn Outsider.. both are interesting options.

Charlatan clerics could be bards with a focus towards 'telling the true story of religion' rather than healing, inflaming the crowds to run the PC heretics out of town rather than being diplomatic, and all the skills also give them a much more interesting personality.

Or you can have a look at the Ebberon Campaign setting for influences. I like the idea that not every cleric is going to be from the cleric class, they're likely to be adepts as well with a focus in the heal skill, and they also have a god that may fill the role your looking for: The Silver Flame.

I don't like the Ebberon campaign setting all that much, but I believe its worth a look for DM's looking for ideas for those 'dark gritty' campaigns.
This page was loaded Aug 22nd 2017, 5:12 am GMT.